Moral absolutes

by Aztec 163 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Howdy Pete. Please understand that although I feel strongly about my argument, I am not on the verge of hysterics over the discussion. I mention that only because you referenced objectivity in the argument, and since my argument is based on the emotional damage of this type of relationship, it might appear as if I am emotional as well. But I'm not.

    Now then, I'm not sure what you mean by "genetic" sense of harm, but I'm choosing to take "congential sense of harm" as meaning inherent, or as Merriam's defines "constituting an essential characteristic. And that's how I've understood your position in this thread. As I understand it, you are taking the position that there are no inherent problems and damage is not necessarily caused by e.g., an adult having anal sex with a 10 year boy a 6 year old girl performing oral sex on a man. You feel that the act itself is not inherently damaging and if society as a whole thought this act was great, then so would the child. Is that fair to say?

    If this is so, then I don't think you appreciate the depth of my position. Now please, take all emotion out of this discussion for a moment. What I'm going to say could be interpreted as an appeal to the subjective, but I don't mean it that way. My position is simply that there is more to the act of pedophilia than simple insertion of a penis, just as there is more to the act of sex between a man and a woman. In the latter, you cannot deny there is a strong emotional feeling, even a bond that occurs. Are those feelings simply a result of 21st century societal norms? Do women feel such a strong and deep feeling during sex just because of our expectations for her?

    My first rapist was my mother. And although what she did to me felt good, it was very confusing to me. She did not force me, as in holding me down, but it was an act that I did not want to participate in. My second rapist was my grandfather. He did hold me down, it did hurt a great deal and I really did not want to participate in it. But that didn't matter. Later my father did the same. I hated it. I wanted it to stop. However, I knew nothing of society's approval or disapproval of what was being done to me. All of my abuse occurred before I was 5. The only people I came in regular contact with told me, by word and by deed, that what they were doing was a good thing and they were going to keep on doing because they enjoyed it. My mother praised me once because of something she made me do. At that time in my life, I was showered with toys and clothes, we had a house on the lake and I could go swimming and boating. As a family we lived better than at any time later in my life. Materially speaking, I had anything I wanted.

    But in my gut, deep inside, I knew it was wrong. Not because the church said it was wrong (we didn't go) and not because I knew that as a Judeo-Christian society, America disapproved strongly of incest. I knew it because the act itself carries such a tremendous emotional, spiritual and symbolic meaning, I felt it down to my cells. I was not an extraordinary child. 99.99999% of children feel the same way. You see, this is a discussion that I have lived. I know deep in my gut what those boys 2,000 years ago felt. I know how dirty they felt afterward, and I know how traumatized they felt in adulthood.

    You say that it was considered an honor to enter a relationship in ancient Greece and Rome. I've read accounts from that period and I agree, that is what the texts say. But hear me when I say again, history is invariably written by the winners. In a relationship with an adult man and a 10 year old boy, who is the dominant? And if the movers and shakers of that society were also so inclinded to also have a relationship with a child, how do you think such a relationship will be documented? It won't be by the boy with the sore ass I can tell you that. My point in this area, is to take what those ancient texts say with a grain of salt. As with the Bible, just because a 2,000 year old document says the little girl was asking for it, got it and enjoyed it, doesn't make the actual event 100% accurate.

    Which is why I made reference to today. There has been serious and productive research into just such a relationship. In the past 20 years we have learned more of the dynamics of this type of union than at any time in human history. And everything that has been learned points to the fact that such contact causes tremendous harm to the child, not because of societal norms but because human beings are not wired this way, especially in childhood. Children and sex are like gasoline and water; when they mix it causes an explosion damaging anything it touches.

    The greatest harm to me was not the physical, those pains healed relatively quickly, no it was the pyschological scars that I carry to this day. 37 years after the fact, it still haunts me. You see it is this, indefinable, unquantifiable aspect of this relationship that is the crux of my argument. I believe that people behave, feel and respond the same way today to the same stimuli and conditions as they did 2,000 years ago. By that I mean that if a woman is raped, the act will engender in her the same feelings and responses in 23 AD as it does in 2003. The only difference will be in how others respond to her and then how she responds to their response and so on. The same with children and adults raping them. The difference this time is that at different points in history, others looked at the children and told them what an honor it was to have this man sodomize them. But that doesn't change how the child feels about the act. As I said before, there is no indication in any historical document that I am aware of, showing the long term effects of such a relationship on the child in puberty, adolescence and adulthood. There is documentation today, and the preponderance of evidence is such that any sexual contact with a child is harmful. Societal norms are irrelevent in this case. Simply making the statement doesn't make it so.

    Now then, perhaps you can make an argument about older boys, in their late teens entering into a relationship with a grown man. There you might have something, depending on the individual boy of course. A gay teen would no doubt be far more eager, than a straight one. But here is where societal norms could indeed play a role. There are many instances in history in which homosexual acts was considered perfectly okay. It was common among Roman legions, especially in the field. Ordinarily straight men would turn to each other and it did not carry the stigma it does today. I have no problem with that argument. But children, now that's another kettle of fish and I'm not the only one who thinks so. To my knowledge there is no credible study or legitimate authority in the field of psychology who feels that sex with children causes no harm.

    I hear what you are saying regarding inherent damage in the act of sex between adult and child. My point, stated simply, is that there is no documentation, no credible evidence that this is so. Simply making the statement and holding on to the belief does not make it a fact. Now then Pete, perhaps your argument should be that the ancient Greeks and Romans considered such a relationship to be an honor and they did so, despite the damage to the child. Perhaps the question should then be in that scenario, is such a relationship moral or not?

    Now then, to try to tie this back to the title of this thread, since we know for a psychological fact that a coupling between adult and child causes the child tremendous harm, is that always immoral? Is there ever a reason or an excuse for such conduct? If not, then that means that there ARE moral absolutes.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Big Tex....I realize that you think me insensitive or just ignorant. If I could better convey my thoughts I am sure you would not find our positions so far apart. This choice of examples is perhaps too close to home or politically charged to serve as a test of absolute universal morality.

    lets use a new one. Sex with a sibling. Lets say that a brother and sister go camping together and while alone they decide to experiment with sexual activity. Both are legal adults. Both are consensual. Birth control is used. After enjoying each others bodies they discuss their feelings. Both agree that it was pleasurable, but due to the public opinion they agree to keep it their secret and not risk doing it again. Did they do wrong? If you say yes explain why. This is a test of the moral ambiguity we all harbor. We instinctively feel disgust but can't really explain why. This demonstrates the loading of moral perception that our culture has implanted in us. This is not bad, just a reality. Other cultures have fewer taboos or none about sibling marriage. Lets run with this example for now if the topic still interests you.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    I realize that you think me insensitive or just ignorant.

    Not at all. I am not offended or hurt by anything you have had to say. In fact I can respect and understand your position while still disagreeing with it. I hope I don't come off as some preachy, long-winded SOB either. But as you say, it could be that we are not so far apart on this issue although I still maintain there are moral absolutes. Not many, perhaps even only one, but I think it is still there nonetheless.

    As far as your example, brother/sister consensual incest is absolutely dictated by society. There are examples in history where in certain societies such a thing does not carry the taboo that it does in this one. Granted there aren't many, but I have heard of it. And if we are to take the Bible as even vaguely accurate, at some point a brother and sister would have had to "known" each other. I don't have a problem with finding this as a common ground.

    It occurs to me that perhaps where our positions diverge is what we now call the age of consent. My position is that a happy and healthy sexual relationship is not possible before a certain age. I would include consenual incest in that possibility with the caveat that mother/father incest would probably always cause some level of dysfunction even it if were with an adult child. Remember the story of Oedipus.

    I hear your position being that age of consent is mostly a product of society and that sex between anyone at any age could be healthy given the right circumstances. Would that be a fair understanding?

    However there is still the matter of unwanted sexual contact (at any age). I raised this issue on page 1 and I still have not heard of a society, or situation in which such an act has been or would be considered okay, or excused in some manner as it is when killing another person whilst defending yourself.

    So as I see it, there are two moral absolutes: 1) sex with a prepubescent child and 2) unwanted sexual contact at any age. I've stated my reasons (long winded they are) for believing this. I don't think this position is a popular one, especially on this board, but that's how I feel. I'm open minded enough to listen to reason however if someone can talk me down.

    Peace,

    Chris

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    Hey BigTex. I for one have always found you to be a kind, thoughtful poster, and before I proceed further in this post I want to make it clear that I respect your opinion. However one cannot help but realize that you are biased (not necessarily a bad thing, so please do not think it an insult) due to your personal experiences. Everyone is biased to an extent when it comes to personal experiences.

    Alas, you stated:

    So as I see it, there are two moral absolutes: 1) sex with a prepubescent child and 2) unwanted sexual contact at any age. I've stated my reasons (long winded they are) for believing this. I don't think this position is a popular one, especially on this board, but that's how I feel. I'm open minded enough to listen to reason however if someone can talk me down.

    Here is where our opinions differ. The very definition of absolute tells someone that it is ALWAYS WRONG, under ANY circumstances, period. This is incorrect. Now I personally believe that sex with a child or unwanted contact at any age is wrong, but it is NOT a moral absolute, and here is why. Under some circumstances it would be the lesser evil. Under some circumstances sex with a child or unwanted contact would be the right thing to do.

    Allow me to illustrate to make it a bit clearer to understand:

    A family of four lives in a home in a quiet residential neighborhood of Anywhere, USA. This is your average American family who pays taxes, goes to church, and lives life to be happy. To be fair and statistically unbiased, we will say this family consists of a father, mother, son, and daughter. Life is bliss for this family, or at least so it seems. One peaceful evening around 10 or 11 pm the family goes to sleep. This normalcy is disturbed when two drunken men break into their home with guns and subdue the parents, for how are a man and woman with only their hands to stop men with firearms? Furthermore, they do not want to see their kids hurt, so they do not initially resist. But these men have other plans. These sick predators love an audience. They beat the boy into a bloody pulp but leave him alive.. and the girl.. well the girl does not share the same fortunate fate. They strip her of her clothes, beat her, and force themselves upon her, ravaging her again and again. As the parents protest they make it painstakingly clear that if they continue to protest they will be killed. The children will die. The entire family will die. The parents sit in submission while this horrifying act is committed, and sure enough, as all sexual predators are, when they finish, they do leave, but not after beating everyone bloody again. Yet, all are still alive...

    This is a scenario that could be all too real. It has happened before, and it will unfortunately happen somewhere sometime again. While I do not believe the rape was anything positive, it was done for the greatest good of all, because the parents and children survived. If they had continued to protest they may in all likelihood have been killed.

    So tell me.. what was the better outcome? To unwillingly let the child be raped but allow all to live? Or to continually protest and fight despite it being morally wrong for a child to be violated, and cause the death of all involved?

    As I said, contextual ethics. There are no moral absolutes. While it was reprehensible what was done.. what was done brought about the better outcome.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.

    Nietzsche said that. What he was saying was that, since death is certain, and God's involvement is abstract, then when faced with an event like the raping of your family, and the humiliation, it is better to choose death. I would have. I would have fought, and hopefully died before I saw something like that.

    CZAR

  • teejay
    teejay

    Chris (and Pete),

    Sorry to intrude (I've really, really, REALLY enjoyed the way you've respectfully handled this disagreement/discussion) but Chris I have a question. Without taking this thread off in another direction, do you consider the prohibition against murder a moral absolute? If not, why not?

  • teejay
    teejay

    Jason,

    Don't take this the wrong way. You and me are cool, right? But I hated your scenario and don't think it fits into this discussion. You win today's award for saying/posting the most disturbing thing I've read/heard today. Congrats.

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Howdy Reborn. No worries my friend. It's cool. Now if I were debating the Holocaust with a couple of Nazis . . . .

    Anyway, okay I'll agree to your definition of absolute. I think it's fair. Now as for the example you give, it's a pretty good one. That would be a tough choice, and I hope neither one of us is ever in that position. (I have heard of stories similar to the example you give. Very gruesome.) By the way, you could easily be right about me. No, not the thoughtful part (although thank you by the way), but I could very well be influenced by my own experience. All I can say is it does change your perspective. More's the pity.

    Now maybe we're going to be splitting hairs here, and if so we'll call it all good and I'll buy you a beer. But in your definition the act must ALWAYS be wrong under any circumstance. And yet I can't help but think that the example you give is really about choices, not morality. Choosing between two immoral acts does not make the one chosen suddenly moral. It does however make it a choice. Society, and the law, will look at those men's actions as not only immoral but illegal.

    As for the parents, I could not in good conscience sit in judgment on their choice, but that's me. However I do think most people would. I think most people would view their decision as, at best, controversial, and at worst immoral.

    Time out. I've looked at the clock and I realize I'm late for work. Let me come back to this later this evening, if that's okay.

    You've presented a good, well reasoned argument Reborn. Thanks for making me stretch a bit.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I just want to separate my comments from those of reborn2002. While contextural ethics may be justification for a wrong to be commited it does not negate the wrong or make it helpful or harmless. The end does not justify the means. This one of the many ethical problems I have with human sacrifice as endorsed by the Bible. My stand does not involve convoluted situations that could conceivably relegate evil (ie. harm) done to an innocent. I am attempting to illustrate that "harm" is itself a measurable commodity, and as such it is the sole determinant of wrong. The child sex issue is naturally volatile. We all know the emotional damage done to a child forced to do what was not regarded as natural. We all know the pain of anal sex with small children. These indignaties and assaults upon the child are wrong, wrong absolutely. The question is left only to define the wrong. Was it in fact the contact of body parts or the assault and disregard for individual rights? These of course appear inseparable in any one instance, but as a matter of principle they are separate issues. For example. The same contact (fondling of genitals)may occur with the doctor after the assault experience without the obvious psychological impact or harm. Why? Of course if the child was violently forced or mentally coerced, this is an obvious distinction, but assuming this case did not involve these, why does the experience not similarly trigger psychological trauma or humiliation? Does not the social construct shape those reactions? Again that this is in fact an a causual factor for the harm does not negate the guilt of the offender not lessen the harm to the child.

    I hoped to steer the conversation away from this example. I was not equating the sibling sex scenario to forced child abuse. The point was to illustrate the elusiveness of formulating legal absolutes. The only true absolutes are again (helpful,harmless, and harmful)it is up to a society to frame law that ensures the best odds of protecting from "harm" and promoting "help" while minding it's own buisiness with matters that are "harmless". And never did I feel you are being unreasonable.

  • Reborn2002
    Reborn2002

    teejay, I have always like you man.

    Don't take this the wrong way. You and me are cool, right? But I hated your scenario and don't think it fits into this discussion. You win today's award for saying/posting the most disturbing thing I've read/heard today. Congrats.

    I can understand why someone would hate that scenario. I never said I liked it. However, as I know you are aware (even if you or I do not wish to be) the world is a cruel place where evil things happen every day. The scenario I gave is very real.

    I am curious though to know how you feel it does not fit into the discussion. The very terminology absolute in regard to morals would quantify that there are no exceptions under any circumstances for some courses of action. Laws given that are not to be doubted, ever (do not murder, do not rape, etc.). This is not logical. The scenario I gave, while grim, would justify a lesser evil for the sake of saving the lives of a number of people. Therefore contextual ethics dictate that a person must examine the unique situation presented in any incident and act for the greatest good of the largest amount of people.

    Thanks for the award too. I take credit in knowing I said something disturbing for you. At least it made people think.

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