Proportional Representation vs Electoral Collages

by Simon 109 Replies latest jw friends

  • Simon
    Simon
    Called it.

    Except no, not really. It's kind of funny that you'd post a link that actually disproves your claim, but I guess desperate times ...

    Isn't the animated chart a big clue? Let me spell it out for you by writing the correct headline:

    Outlying poll result is only one to give slight majority support for independence in over 5 years.

    See? If you have result after result that say one thing and then one odd extreme outlying result that says the opposite, going with that outlier as "the result" shows some degree of dishonesty.

    Most of the time, when questioned, independence is clearly rejected by the majority. But this is the EU trick isn't it - ignore the 9 times you're told no, and keep asking until you get the answer you want and then make it binding for eternity.

    The EU don't want Scotland, it has nothing to offer to them economically (except maybe to act as an immigrant dumping group ala Ireland). But keep dreaming of your "freedom" ... which really means becoming an even smaller, insignificant appendage to a larger group where you'd have even less say over your own governance than you have now.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Following the Tory win in England and defeat in Scotland in the December 2019 election, my claim was that the next poll would should a majority for independence.

    This is the next poll and it shows a majority for independence.

    Prediction: another poll released tonight will show even greater support for independence.

    The EU don't want Scotland,

    Not exactly.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/feb/02/donald-tusk-eu-would-be-enthusiastic-if-scotland-applied-to-rejoin

    https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5239449/donald-tusk-independent-scotland-eu/

    Ireland has gone from one of the poorest countries in Europe, to 5th wealthiest country in the world since joining the EU. What a terrible warning for Scotland about “going it alone” and rejoining the EU!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

  • Simon
    Simon
    This is the next poll and it shows a majority for independence.

    It's an outlier result and a very slight margin - if the polls show consistent and strong support then that would be different, but they don't. Maybe they will one day, but right now it's not really conclusive enough.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Next poll now out shows 52% for independence. That’s three polls in a row with small majorities for independence.

    http://scotgoespop.blogspot.com/

    Not conclusive enough for what? To declare independence immediately? No doubt.

    But what’s the long term game plan for unionists, seriously? How long can they deny Scotland has the right to determine its own future. Do they seriously intend to keep Scotland in the UK against its will?

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    How long can they deny Scotland has the right to determine its own future. Do they seriously intend to keep Scotland in the UK against its will?

    ^^^ *sigh*

    We've been through this point several times previously.

    Scotland is in the UK due to its will - voting Remain in IndyRef 2014.

    Boris Johnson and his Tory government are respecting that IndyRef result. Boris, the UK Prime Minister, also has a democratic mandate to deliver on the withdrawal of the UK from the EU, which he's getting on with.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Are you saying Scotland is not allowed to change its mind?

    The latest poll shows 52% support for independence in Scotland.

    53% say the Scottish government has a mandate for a new referendum.

    56% say that Brexit is a change in circumstance that justifies a new referendum.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/latest-poll-shows-support-for-scottish-independence-at-52-1-5085435

    That's three in a row.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/feb/04/scottish-independence-survey-shows-brexit-has-put-union-at-risk

    What’s the unionist strategy? Hold Scotland hostage until it changes its mind? Is that going to work?

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    The question is whether you want direct democracy, oppression of the majority so to say, or a representative government where each area of the country, typically divided into cities and groups of towns, gets an equal vote.

    Good and long-term governments are built upon representative governments because each area (eg. farming, fishing, cities, ...) get a say in their policies. If you have a majority vote for everything, a majority can always agree to persecute the minority, whether the minority is rich people, black people, gay people. Hence why direct democracies usually lead to bad outcomes unless you can make every choice between two highly contrasting ideas (eg. kill all the blacks vs kill all the whites)

  • Simon
    Simon
    That’s three polls in a row with small majorities for independence

    Yeah, but almost all the same afternoon ... it's not a prolonged or sustained majority by any means and right now there have been a lot of things up in the air, you may have heard of this thing called "BREXIT" happening ...

    Only an idiot would want to rush into more major change before the ripples from the previous one have subsided.

  • LoveUniHateExams
    LoveUniHateExams

    Are you saying Scotland is not allowed to change its mind? - at the moment, Scotland (actually the SNP) needs to respect and live by the result of IndyRef 2014.

    The Scots are allowed to change their minds in the future - just not right now.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    The UK needs to respect that the people of the nations of the UK are sovereign—always.

    Or who gets to decide when Scotland is “allowed” to change its mind?

    Do you really think keeping a country in a union it wants to leave is winning strategy? How exactly is that going to play out.

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