by Simon 109 Replies latest jw friends
England voted against having another EU referendum - the UK voted against having another EU referendum.
Scotland voted in favour of having another independence referendum - well, the SNP did very well and have another UK indy ref on their manifesto.
But how many UK indy refs do you want?
Just one more, as long as Leave the UK wins?
Best of three?
Or just keep re-running it until you get the answer you want (which is leave the UK)?
LUHE - " But how many UK indy refs do you want?"
... and why should the UK honour another referendum any more than the one in 2014 that is now being undermined?
So how does it work - if you keep having referendums until you get the answer you want, do the other side then get to keep having referendums until it's reversed? This is pure EU approach - the actual will of an electorate is an inconvenience, they just need to be worn down by repeated voting until only the hardest of the hard-core can be bothered to turn up.
There needs to be a binding limit to major changes and to how often you can keep asking the question.
The Scotts would be fools the leave the UK, they have a far better deal as a major part of the UK than they will get as a minor part of the EU ... with no forgone access to the only major market they border.
Most of those major companies in Scotland are there for low-cost access to the UK market, not because the Scotts are their customers.
This vote was yet another referendum on Brexit, not on Scottish independence. SNP ran on Remain, they wanted to remain part of a Union, now they'll get that.
If Labour had won, they'd won their independence from the UK but not from the EU? How is the EU better than the UK, at least in the UK they get to be part of parliament.
The other thing is that Scots didn't vote unilaterally for SNP, the Lib-Dems, a Unionist party got 1/3 of the vote in Scotland and largely cannibalized Labour votes.
Interesting to watch all this from a historical perspective. The Confederate States of America made similar arguments in the run up to the Civil War. Did the states retain a right to withdraw from a Union that they felt was changing the rules of the game? Did they have a right to ignore supreme court rulings they disagreed with? Did the Federal Government have a right to tell the states what to do within their borders? Six hundred thousand dead Americans later, we had the answers. I hope our friends in the UK are not going down that road.
If the SNP lost another referendum then it would be up to the people of Scotland to decide when, if ever, to have another one. That’s democracy. It’s for the SNP to decide when to have another vote or for Westminster to decide. It is for Scottish people to decide to decide. Scotland voted against the Tories and for the SNP. Scotland’s parliament has a majority for an independence referendum. Does the UK respect democracy or not?
The reason unionists so fiercely oppose a referendum is because they know they will lose. But denying democracy will make support for independence will grow stronger. So either way unionism is on the way out. Why not accept democracy and do this amicably?
It’s for the SNP to decide when to have another vote - no, it's not.
Boris just got elected to be PM of the UK on a manifesto promising to 'Get Brexit Done'.
So, first, we get brexit done (i.e. the whole of the UK, including Scotland, leaving the EU) - however long this may take - and only afterwards can Scotland have IndyRef Mk 2.
There's also one important caveat: the Scottish electorate will be asked the question whether they want to remain in or leave the UK. Whichever way the vote goes, it will be understood by both Leavers and Remainers that the political union known as the UK won't be broken up in the event that Leave wins - i.e. the UK will continue as a political union with or without Scotland.
Boris Johnson just got elected UK Prime Minister with a huge majority and therefore with a clear political mandate. This must be accepted by all before we can proceed.
the UK voted against having another EU referendum - majority of the UK people voted for parties supporting either Remain or second referendum. In no way it undermines the legitimacy of the new Parliament and Government, but it's a fact.
Scotts whine non stop until they have another referendum, but the reality is they have disproportionate influence and power - no, they don't. 8.5% of the UK's voters reside in Scotland, and they are represented by 59 MPs, or 9% of all MPs; for Scotland and NI combined, the figures are 11.2% and 11.8% respectively. That's far from "disporoportionate". Not to mention that Scotts have zero power and influence in the new UK govenment.
I meant to write it’s not for the SNP to decide if or when there should be a referendum. It’s for the Scottish people to decide. Not the SNP, Westminster, or anyone else, but the people.
I can certainly understand and appreciate the argument that says, we already had a referendum in 2014 and let’s move on. That’s a perfectly reasonable position to take, there’s no denying that. A significant number of people in Scotland do feel that way. But here is the thing: the Tories stood on that basis in Scotland and they lost. Not just slightly, but they lost more than half their seats. If the Tories or Labour had won in Scotland then we would not be having this conversation. The Lib Dems are even bigger opponents of an independence referendum and their leader lost her seat to SNP, which is virtually unprecedented. The election result was clear.
People are entitled to their opinion that the 2014 referendum was sufficient, but the people have voted for it. If this is a demoncracy then the referendum needs to happen. The SNP argued that the situation has changed and we deserve a say on our future in the new circumstances. The SNP won the election with a landslide on that basis. If democracy means anything then that means Scotland will have a referendum on its future.
I predict the march on January 11th could be the biggest in Scottish history, the weather notwithstanding.
The SNP were elected in 2016 on a manifesto to have a new referendum if Scotland is taken out of the EU against its will. The UK leaves the EU next month. The current Scottish Parliament runs out in 2021, so the referendum will take place before then, probably toward the end of 2020. (Appropriately 700 years since the Declaration of Arbroath)
You are correct the UK continues when Scotland becomes independent. We call this rUK already in Scotland. When it’s already in the language, that in itself is a good indication it’s going to happen.
"The SNP argued that the situation has changed and we deserve a say on our future in the new circumstances."
And this is where the issue of democracy fails on the side of the SNP.
The democratic vote is being violated just because things have moved on. What it means in practice is that democracy can be overruled at any whim whenever change happens. This will devalue and undermine democracy. It means the democratic vote means nothing, not even in the short term.
Altered circumstances should have no bearing on the choices and decisions that people have made because it would be unfair for the people that the vote favoured, in this case the people of Scotland who wished to remain in the UK back in 2014.
This has been the whole problem with Brexit. The minority wanted to undermine the democratic vote rather than respect it.
Calling for another referendum so soon after having one in 2014 makes a mockery of democracy.
The UK respects democracy. It is the SNP who are violating it.
