Proportional Representation vs Electoral Collages (page 7)

Giles Gray

It really is amazing that no matter how comprehensively a position is debunked, it seems that denial will prevail.

slimboyfat

Nope, the latest poll was on the 11th of December 46/47%, or 49/51%, excluding undecideds.

I’ll be astonished if the next poll doesn’t show a majority for independence.

Bearing in mind that we started the last campaign with 30% support, 49% is a good starting point.

The poll you refer to was a week earlier. See here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_second_Scottish_independence_referendum#Opinion_polling

the fact is that there are many Scots who think it is a big enough change in the settlement that we should revisit the question of independence in a new referendum - but what about the timeframe? It's only been 5 years since the once-in-a-generation 2014 IndyRef.

I think Sturgeon should let Brexit happen (i.e. let the whole of the UK leave the EU), then wait at least 10 years before InyRef 2. In calling for a second referendum so soon, she's showing she doesn't respect democracy because she's not respecting the result of the 2014 vote.

It has always been the position of UK governments that Scotland can become independent if it wants to - Slim, you're talking like Scotland wasn't allowed the 2014 IndyRef. I wish you could hear yourself.

slimboyfat

It is not a matter of Scotland being “allowed” to make a decision in 2014. Can you hear yourself? That attitude stinks. Scotland can decide if it wants independence any time it wants. Westminster can choose to respect the wishes of Scotland or not, but it can’t remove sovereignty from the people, morally, or in the long run, politically. If they try, support for independence will get even stronger.

I think Sturgeon should let Brexit happen (i.e. let the whole of the UK leave the EU), then wait at least 10 years before InyRef 2.

I respect that’s your opinion. Some people in Scotland also share that opinion. What baffles me is why you think your opinion on the subject matters more than results of four consecutive victories for a manifesto for a new referendum in Scotland, including a majority in Parliament and a landslide of 48 out of 59 seats?

Why should Scotland bother debating a new referendum or having elections, if all we need to do is ask LUHE what his opinion is. We could save the expense of elections and call them off.

LoveUniHateExams

Scotland can decide if it wants independence any time it wants - and to hell with the 2014 referendum result?

What baffles me if why you think your opinion on the subject matters more than results of four consecutive victories for a manifesto for a new referendum in Scotland - but my opinion isn't opposed to a new IndyRef; I was commenting on the timeframe of IndyRef2 and its lack of respect for the first referendum result.

Please address this.

slimboyfat

The 2014 result is respected. Scotland is still part of the UK and we send MPs to Westminster. Scotland will remain part of the UK until and unless the result of the 2014 referendum is overturned by democratic process.

The only way that can happen is if Scotland votes for parties proposing a new referendum (which they have done), there is a majority in Parliament (which there is), a new referendum is called, and there is a majority for independence in the referendum. If all that happens, then that is the democratic outcome of events since 2014. A new referendum can only happen because Scots voted. Scotland will only become independent if it votes for independence. The ones disrespecting democracy are those in Westminster trying to stop Scotland having its say on its own future, hiding behind the result in 2014 and ignoring every election since.

Again, your opinion on the timing of the referendum is noted. But why do you think your opinion matters more than the Scottish Parliament. Scots voted for a Parliament in 2016 that will hold a referendum before 2021.

LoveUniHateExams

The 2014 result is respected - I don't think it is respected by all political parties. For instance, is Sturgeon respecting the result of this once-in-a-generation exercise?

The ones disrespecting democracy are those in Westminster trying to stop Scotland having its say on its own future, hiding behind the result in 2014 [italics mine] - those in Westminster are simply respecting the 2014 result. Scotland decided its future at the time by choosing to stay in the UK.

In maybe 10 or 15 years, a second referendum sounds like a reasonable idea.

notsurewheretogo

SBF...

Can you answer the questions I have asked a few times on this thread?

We become independent and stare at a ten billion hole in our finances. How does Scotland fund that?

The two answers I have heard so far are a) get more people in Scotland and b) grow our economy.

Neither will instantly give us ten billion pounds.

How would you convince a person who is politically neutral, has no agenda but simply wants what is best for his people and family etc that independence will create a better future given the facts that we start with ten billion pounds down and lots of infrastructure to create or settle via divorce settlement?

slimboyfat

Yes I understand when you think a new referendum would be reasonable in 10 years. It’s a reasonable point of view, and many would agree with you. However Scotland voted for a parliament that is in favour of a new referendum before 2021. Why should your opinion matter more than Scottish elections and the Scottish Parliament? We could avoid the expense of further elections and just defer to your opinion?

Many promises were made during the 2014 campaign that were not kept, such as a secure place in the EU and the “vow” that Scotland would be treated as partners with the other nations of the UK. Other democracies ensure that referendums need to be unanimous among constituent parts. Instead Cameron called an EU referendum that resulted in Scotland being taken out of the EU becaus we have a smaller population than England and got outvoted. That’s not showing respect as partners. Even Australian states are afforded more power than that, because constitutional referendums need to be unanimous among Australian states. It is true Sturgeon said the 2014 was once in a generation. Frankly she had no business making that statement because it is not for her or any other policiian to make that decision. It is up to Scottish people to make that decision. If Scots want a referendum every ten years that’s up to them. Or if they never want another referendum ever again that’s up to them. These issues are democratically decided by elections, and we have decided to have another referendum. You can think that’s unreasonable or too soon if you like, but it’s not your call to make.

Proportional Representation vs Electoral Collages

Share this