C.O. Reports: JWs/WTS "Reach Critical Mass...

by BitterTruth 107 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Nathan Natas

  Thank you BJC for providing the timeline, Naturally, this only raises more questions (not directed at you, BJC):

  ITEM ONE: Spring of 1996 begins the "Measuring" period of Revelation 11:1

  Upon what basis does he make this claim?
  Revelation 11:1-3 only says
  

  "1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, 'Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there.
  2 But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.
  3 And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.'"

  
  If it says anything about 1999 there I must have missed it. What SPECIFIC EVENTS attend this alledgedly now fulfilled prophecy?

  ITEM TWO: Fall of 1999 for beginning of "1260 days" of "prophesying" of Two Witnesses

  I think this coincides with the time period during which TWMC was offering "THE REPORT" for sale. Boy, that's remarkable! There's nothing like inserting yourself into prophecy to bouy the spirits, is there? This seems to be one thing that TWMC learned well from the WTS - "make YOURSELF the center of the Universe."

  ITEM THREE: Spring of 2003 starts the "trampling of Jerusalem"

  I can hardly wait! Is there time for the residents of Brooklyn Heights and Patterson to purchase "trampling insurance"? Note to self - don't bother planting a garden in spring 2003.

  ITEM FOUR: Fall of 2006 for the beginning of the "3 1/2 days" of death and shame of the "Two Witnesses," inflicted by the "Small Horn" of Daniel 8:23.

  So, is TWMC here predicting his own "death" and "shame"? ...and we're still applying the "day for a year rule here, correct? WHO is the "small horn" in TWMC's interpretation of Daniel's vision? And does this suggest that at the end of the 3 1/2 days (spring 2010) another "significant event" would occur?

  I'm sure that TWMC has no trouble whatsoever seeing the grand unfolding of Bible Prophecy with himsef as the centerpiece on the table, just as Fred Franz did.

  How's old Freddy doing these days?

  For the sake of the game, I'll take the counterpoint and boldly predict that none of this stuff will happen with any greater significance than the assembly in Cedar Point, Ohio in 1922 - sound and fury, signifying nothing.

  oops! I forgot ITEM FIVE: October 7, 2001

  Other than it being the 70th birthday of the name "Jehovah's Witnesses" (I should have baked a cake!), it's another non-event.

  Edited by - Nathan Natas on 28 August 2002 17:27:44
• 

  Seeker4

  This post seems to have taken on a whole new life. Great! Let me respond to a couple of the posts here.

  Farkel - my favorite ice cream? Interesting question. If you really "need to know," probably chocolate or a really creamy vanilla - soft serve please.

  Ozziepost - Thanks for the compliment about my posts. I honestly feel that most of my stuff just gets lost in the shuffle and volume of material here, and doubt that it has much affect.

  Kagloo - Boy, do you sound like you're going through a lot of stuff many of us have experienced. I can remember stumbling onto sites like this one back in the mid-90s, and the HUGE sense of relief realizing that I was not alone in my concerns about the WTS.

  You asked what happened to my relationship with Jehovah. In brief, I found that when I gave myself permission to seriously question the teachings of the Witnesses, it followed that I could then take a hard look at the Bible and religion in general. It took me a few years, and reasonably so after a lifetime as a 'true believer,' but I eventually came to the conclusion that the Bible, God, and religion in general were just the stories we've created over thousands of years in order to deal with the uncertainty - and fear - of death.

  I also found that spirituality has really nothing to do with god or religion, but has everything to do with how we live our lives and deal with other people. I kind of chuckle now when I see or hear of people pondering questions of God's existence or His purpose for us. To me, that has all the relevance of worrying about whether Santa is going to bring me presents because I've been a good boy. A delightful myth and story, but one I've certainly outgrown.

  Nearly everything you wrote, the yearning to be a part of the Witnesses, to be energized to action by the meetings the way I once was, and so on - all of this hit home with me. When I started looking into science and history to get an understanding of the Bible and religion, I WANTED the Bible to be proven true, as I wanted to continue to be a Witness and to believe in God. But once embarked on, the journey toward truth cannot easily be sidelined, and I found that it eventually took me to where I am today.

  You may get here as well. But do not make the mistake that losing one's belief in religion and God leads to hopelessness and despair. FAR from it! You'll find that seeing the world as it really is - both good and evil, ugly and beautiful - is a remarkable experience, and one not to be missed.

  Bitter Truth: There may truly be a third of the Bethelites, COs and DOs, who are not in agreement with the WTS and would like to see serious changes. But, they are not organized, they don't talk to each other, and I would seriously doubt that there is any kind of attempt to make needed changes in the Society by these brothers. And we all know that the sisters have no power whatsoever.

  And all this "prophecy" that BJC provided us: Just more Watchtower-like nonsense. More false prophecy about another false prophet. Nathan Natas dissected it rather nicely.

  S4
• 

  winsome

  Hi Seeker4:

  There may truly be a third of the Bethelites, COs and DOs, who are not in agreement with the WTS and would like to see serious changes. But, they are not organized, they don't talk to each other, and I would seriously doubt that there is any kind of attempt to make needed changes in the Society by these brothers.

  Perhaps, it would be more accurate to just say: "I'm not AWARE OF any organized effort on the part of Circuit and District Overseers who are not in agreement with the WTS and would like to see serious changes."

  But that doesn't mean these brothers are not working "behind the scenes". For example, take what is said below by our beloved brother Farkel, in his most candid fashion, as he reveals something that we are not considering. I think his worthy insights might prove to be helpful to all who have wondered about this situation. He writes,

  "Hell I've got a copy of the "top secret" Elders meeting from last year in my possession. You know the one: required a "special invitation" and an entrance ticket and you had to be "loyal to the max" to even get invited. I haven't been to a meeting in thirty years and I have my own personal copy on two CDs of the whole damn thing! I know more about that secret crap than your local elder! SECRET BODY OF ELDERS LETTERS BEING PUBLISHED WEEKLY ON KENT'S SITE, CO'S AND DO'S REVEALING WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING ON. Shit! I think the WTS has absolutely and TOTALLY LOST in the information revolution. The irony of that is that the whole damn publishing company was founded, built and prospered on providing "information." Now, "information" is destroying them and they have no defense. They will NEVER reclaim the glory days of the 1960's and 1970's again. Never. Farkel"

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=35520&site=3

  This seems to me to be real, hard evidence of an "organized effort" on the part of disgruntled Circuit and District Overseers to UNDERMINE the Governing Body and WTS. How? They are willingly providing "inside information" to strengthen opposition forces of Brooklyn Bethel and the Governing Body. And in turn, this secret "inside information" provided by dissident Circuit and District Overseers can be used to initiate reform in the organization (i.e. letters can be used to alert media who informs the general public and conscientious JWs which in turn puts unuusal pressure on for WT-policy change), a powerful weapon. Case in point, Bill Bowens & Silentlambs.

  So what most of us (standing on the sidelines watching the game) do not realize is how these "secret" correspondences that are being funneled out to the opposition very possibly work to internally disrupt and vitiate evil works of the WTS. They serve to weaken the EFFECTIVENESS of much "hidden activity" and ungodly policy which would be otherwise promptly implemented by the Governing Body and their devilish "drone" assistants, and no one would be the wiser. See what I mean?

  You might say, having secret agent COs and DOs on the job, actually "cramp the style" of the Governing Body. And in doing this, these brave Circuit and District Overseers who are ACTIVE REFORMERS mind you, are "working undercover" and are accomplishing much for the good and bettermen of the organization and the JW brotherhood. In other words, we can call them "UNDERCOVER BROTHERS", like the movie.

  Now having said that, we can see how this unique situation could be a real problem for the WTS. They are infiltrated, already. They have "enemies" among them, at the most top levels, working against them. How horrible this must be for them!

  Is it any wonder the WTS is so afraid of "apostates", especially the HIGH STATION kind! This means the worst fears of the Governing Body could come true, that this concerted apostate effort from the inside, from the highest eschelons of WT organizational authority, could inevitably lead to the actual toppling of the entire WTS structure. Because of these INSIDE, disloyal "spies". So then given whats at stake, disloyal apostate Circuit and District Overseer (as well as others in even HIGHER STATION in the Borg) pose then the most deadly, formidable, most serious threat EVER ENCOUNTERED by the Governing Body and status quo JWs to date! They are the dangerous "leak" in the Governing Body's full tank. And until that "leak" is plugged, the Governing Body won't be able to sleep good at night.

  winsome

  Edited by - winsome on 30 August 2002 13:10:56
• 

  waiting

  Hello winsome,

  I have read the first 2 pages.......and then the New Life this thread has taken and read the last page.

  This seems to me to be real, hard evidence of an "organized effort" on the part of disgruntled Circuit and District Overseers to UNDERMINE the Governing Body and WTS. - winsome

  Not really. I will agree that there is an CO/DO/high elders "effort" going on - as Farkel has stated about secret information being brought to the net (and other places) before the local elders even know about it. But that doesn't prove it's an "organized effort" by a group, whether they're organized or not.

  In time of war, individuals, spys, militia, have wreaked havoc on the enemy....well before becoming an organized opposition.

  Whoever helps makes public the crappy secrets of the WTBTS should be considered as persons with conscience.....and willing to act upon it.

  waiting
• 

  Seeker4

  Winsome, Waiting, etc.,

  Man, I hope you're right. I do know there is some serious dissension among high ranking brothers (I was the one who started this thread, after all). I just question the amount of organization among those who are deeply troubled by the WTS.

  How can a ton of these brothers not be concerned over how the WTS has handled this whole pedophilia issue?? So lets hope their efforts continue. It certainly must be troubling to those in the know at Bethel.

  I also frequently surprise Witness family members by telling them that I can find out things about the WTS on the Net faster than any of them. For example, I had a complete breakdown on the elder's school last fall, more quickly than my elder father-in-law was able to drive home from his KM School!!

  S4
• 

  Farkel

  seeker4,

  : For example, I had a complete breakdown on the elder's school last fall, more quickly than my elder father-in-law was able to drive home from his KM School!!

  I have it, too. It's quite helpful when I feel stressed out and need to relax and go into a deep coma.

  Farkel
• 

  Seeker4

  So true, Farkel. Trust me, I did not go out of my way to listen to the 16 hours of audio that one sneaky Coloradoan posted on the Net - the entire elder's school secretly tape recorded.

  There are better ways to bore oneself to death.

  S4
• 

  ApagaLaLuz

  And all this time I thought it was just me.

  I remember when the society introduced the smaller versions of the song book, bible, and bible story book. The "ol timers" speculated that it was to hide the literature during the great tribulation. I noticed as a pioneer, that we all just seemed to be going through the motions.

  Like it was brought out in the thread, meetings and assemblies are becoming so monotanous. Nothing new is ever discussed. It's the same dry material repeated over and over again.

  I remember when the dramas were so entertaining, with lots of effects and such. Year by year they are becoming drier and drier, as the society didn't want to be compared to "Christendom's" form of entertaining worship.

  I remember when I was young and I'd complain about how boring the meetings were. Family study was the worst. During bible reading, I always volunteered to read to I could make up voices. My parents would tell me that Jehovah was a serious god, and I should take it seriously.

  I beleive that worship should be fun and upbuilding. The isrealites used music and dance and instruments to worship. We sing verbatum from the song books, the same tired songs. I remember the elders in my congregation giving a local needs talk about witnesses who were creating their own "kingdom songs" and recording them. They also said it was inappropraite for kingdom songs to be played on the guitar and sang around the beach bonfires.

  Ridiculous stuff. Alot of my old JW friends who I grew up with, when I talk to them, tell me that they agree with me. They don't think the Organization is divinely inspired, and they would leave if they weren't afriad of losing their famliy.

  I don't think the newer generation will carry on once the older generation dies out.....
• 

  scotoma

  These old posts reveal how little changes.

  This one is from 2001 with the last post in 2010

  How long can an organization fall apart?

  After reading this I realized that the Watchtower is quite immune to change. It could easily go another 12 years without anything changing.

  The only wild card is what happens in the centenial year of 2014.
• 

  nonjwspouse

  We can only hope there will be some sort of awakening within. Amazing that this origional post was 12 years ago