or is your god for the predestination of this situation?
F1962: that explains why an all powerful god who wants to demonstrate his wisdom ans compassion allows little girls to be raped and often killed. He cant act because it is predestined.
Does prophesy negate free will?
by Tim207 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
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waton
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JimmyYoung
This has been a question I have always thought about. How can you predict the future if there is not change always possible. Trillions to the trillionth power of small changes that each one could have a butterfly affect.
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MeanMrMustard
MMM- You are missing the point.
The god of xtian theism knows every single thing I will ever say, think or do in minute detail.
Right.
Therefore the book of my life from conception to death is already written in stone (the god of the WT chooses not to read the book - an irrelevant detail)
I agree, the WT God chooses to see only parts of the future. It is somewhat confusing how He would choose the parts of the future to ignore without first having knowledge of those future parts, so as to not know them... but, as you say, irrelevant detail.
Therefore I have no freedom to choose otherwise.
But that is the modal logic fallacy described. So it is not missing the point. In short, just because God’s knows your decision, doesn’t invalidate your decision making ability. You could choose otherwise, in which case God would know that choice.
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cofty
You could choose otherwise - MMM
How?
If the entire book of me life is written in stone before I was even conceived then my 'choices' are no more free than Macbeth was free to choose not to commit regicide. His every word and action was scripted by the Bard.
Life would be 100% deterministic and no genuine relationship with god would be possible.
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MeanMrMustard
The choice comes first logically. The choice causes the pre-knowledge, not the other way around. If you choose differently, God would know that choice. But you still had the free will to make the choice.
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cofty
The choice causes the pre-knowledge - MMM
But that is not what christians & JWs believe.
They teach that god knows every tiny detail of your life - every single thought word and action - BEFORE your birth. Indeed that is what the bible teaches if read literally. JWs believe the same except they insist god doesn't choose to read The Great Big Book of You; He COULD know but prefers not to. Perhaps Jehovah likes surprises.
Anybody theist who insists on god's omniscience cannot square this circle. There is/was a school of thought called Open Theism led by men like Clark Pinnock that tried to unpick this puzzle by teaching that God does not know the future perfectly as he cannot know our free choices in advance.
I had a falling out with our Baptist pastor over this issue and became an apostate for a second time.
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MeanMrMustard
But that is not what christians & JWs believe.
All Christians? The references that I passed to you were written by Christians, well at least the second reference. The first seemed like flat out logic paper, critical of determinism.
They teach that god knows every tiny detail of your life - every single thought word and action - BEFORE your birth.
Exactly. But they are also saying this pre-knowledge doesn't imply what you think it implies, without creating a modal logic error. God's pre-knowledge comes first chronologically, but not logically.
Let me see if I can say this another way. If God can create a world with free will, all that omniscience implies is that He knows the outcomes of the free will, not that free will doesn't exist. They assert FIRST that free will exists. THEN assert God knows the outcomes because of the omniscience. Choice causes the pre-knowledge, not pre-knowledge causing the choice.
In short, God knows what you will choose. But you still choose.
Indeed that is what the bible teaches if read literally. JWs believe the same except they insist god doesn't choose to read The Great Big Book of You; He COULD know but prefers not to. Perhaps Jehovah likes surprises.
Right, and that has its own contradiction - as I stated earlier.
Anybody theist who insists on god's omniscience cannot square this circle. There is/was a school of thought called Open Theism led by men like Clark Pinnock that tried to unpick this puzzle by teaching that God does not know the future perfectly as he cannot know our free choices in advance.
Again, I don't see the explicit contradiction. Where is the square circle? They are looking at free will and omniscience a differently than you are... but why is that a contradiction? Look, I am not making an argument for that world view. I am just saying that I don't see the explicit contradiction (square circle).
I had a falling out with our Baptist pastor over this issue and became an apostate for a second time.
I had a falling out with my cat today, as I almost transformed him into General Tso's ... I miss General Tso's.
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Vanderhoven7
MMM
The choice comes first logically. The choice causes the pre-knowledge, not the other way around. If you choose differently, God would know that choice. But you still had the free will to make the choice.
I think you summarize the argument rather nicely. One reason I am against Calvinism is precisely because it denies free will
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snare&racket
What did you eat for breakfast today? What colour socks did you put on? What was your first words spoken?
if we pressed rewind and wiped your memory and pressed play, letting you 'free' to make those choices over again, what would you eat, pick, say?
The most logical answer is you would pick the same breakfast.... the INFLUENCES that led you to 'banana pancake' the first time around would lesd you to the exact same choice every time. The same events would lead to you saying the same first words.
We may hate to admit it, but logically, we ride a wave of influences and our 'choices' were always going to take place.... most interestingly..... from external influence sources.
We are not delving into a mythical psyche to ask what socks to wear, the many influences from cultural to chemical to experiential etc..... that led your mood, preference, and availability to picking 'fluffy orange' were all external.
I see no evidence for free will.......
Which is most ironically not what my free will would prefer....