Wanna see me stick my foot in my mouth? Its a question for you women,

by William Penwell 78 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    Again, the above statement makes no sense. The "loser" is not only good at surviving, he is also able to help his children survive.

    He's not very good at surviving! If he was, he'd be very popular with most women, as he would have exactly the qualities their genes are looking for. The fact that he's not does mean that he's less likely to stray (after all, where would he go?), but the advantages of this are probably outweighed by the disadvantages - direct and indirect - of mating with someone who's less healthy and less capable.

    And I really must ask you, what is so "good" about the genes of a philanderer who does not stay at home ensuring the survival of his offspring?

    The philandering bit! They're not "good" in a moral sense, but genes don't have morals. Don't forget, the amount of effort expended by a man in fathering a child is roughly equivalent to missing lunch. It's worth fathering a lot of children by a lot of different women even if a lower percentage would survive than had he fathered three or four children and been a devoted husband and father. Again not "worth" it in any moral sense, simply from the point of his success in spreading his genes. (Of course, the "best" way is probably a combination of both: Marry, but cheat when you can get away with it.)

    And let's not forget that the mother's genes are also passed along to her offspring; not just the father's.
    Of course, and a mother who settles for someone unhealthy and unattractive will likely produce children who do the same. That lineage won't last as long as a combination of healthier, pickier people.
    Yes, this debate is still raging. However, there is very strong evidence to support that sexual behavior is highly influenced by social restrictions and cultural conditioning. Look at the Dani of New Guinea who have sex only for reproduction and almost became extinct because of it:

    Having sex in such a ritualistic and infrequent way is not a good survival technique, as evidenced by the fact that they almost became extinct.

    The Mangaia seem to have a far better method, testing their males for virility before any commitments are made. They have essentially ritualised the philandering phase of youth. Those who "can't cut it in the sack" get the same treatment they get in most societies and cultures. They lose sexual partners. Interestingly, after marriage, females are expected to stay faithful whereas men are not.

    And then we have Victorian culture that still influences our society. They are also mentioned on the above link.

    Of course, Victorian values are seen by many traditionalists in our society as the correct way to live. Sex within marriage for the purposes of reproduction; women should not enjoy sex. This has of course, proven to be unnatural. Humans - men and women - are sexual beings and behave essentially the same way regardless of culture.

    Why cant we also accept that even though we are animals, we are not like all the other animals?

    Most people have no problem accepting that. There seems to be more of a difficulty accepting our similarities to other animals.

    What I am saying is that if it is advantageous for men to sow their seed for genetic diversity, it is also advantageous for women to have multi-partners although male sociobiologists rarely want to admit that

    There is a very obvious way in which it is more advantageous for a man to be promiscuous than for a woman. I've mentioned it several times and it should really be self-evident. But here it is again: There is effectively no limit to the number of children a man can father, if he's fit enough. A few minutes effort with a strange woman gives him a good chance of producing offspring that will never ever cost him anything again. The costs are miniscule; the potential (genetic) benefits enormous. A woman who is promiscuous will likely get pregnant (probably not by her "ideal mate") and will have to spend the best part of the next two decades looking after the child if it is to have any chance of survival. For almost a year after she becomes pregnant, she cannot get pregnant again and thus may miss out on the opportunity of mating with a better partner. Women are generally more choosy about their sexual partners because there is a relatively low limit on quantity, so quality is paramount.

    http://my.concordhospital.org/HealthNews/Reuters/NewsStory0708200325.htm

    Concealed ovulation has traditionally been seen as a way of encouraging pair-bonding. It can also be a mechanism by which women can cheat and have the best of both worlds. Recent studies seem to indicate that women are more likely to get pregnant during an illicit sexual encounter than one with their regular partner. This latest finding strengthens this case; it appears women can, to some extent, ovulate "at will", although more the "will" of their genes and hormones than any conscious decision. The child has the genes of a sexually successful philandering father but the love and attention of a good provider.

    This may well explain why in most cultures it has been more acceptable for a man to cheat than a woman. A woman is not materially disadvantaged if her husband fathers a child with another woman, whereas a man who spends time and effort raising other people's children is likely to find that his lineage ends with him.

    What about step parents? I am so glad that most step mothers and step fathers do not feel this way.

    People make conscious decisions all the time to do things that are not beneficial to their genes. I'm not denying that. Still, the majority of people would prefer not to look after another person's child as their own, especially for a first marriage (or equivalent.) It is also worth noting that children are far more likely to die at the hands of a step-parent than a biological parent.

    It seems to me that you are saying that it is okay for a man to cheat, to leave his children fatherless and not have to pay for or expend energy towards the consequences just as long as he gets a chance to sow his seed.

    Not at all. It's a morally repugnant way to behave. But it's a very good way to pass on your genes. Which is all it needs to be to get passed on.

    But God forbid if a woman causes him to take some responsibilty. That is not okay. Especially if the child is not his.

    Again, it's not about morality. While it may be immoral for a woman to lie about who the father of her child is, it can be a successful survival strategy.

    So, let me see if I have this correct, the woman is the one who must pay or be responsible for the sexual choices of both genders while the man gets to do whatever his penis tells him to do, without any sort of responsibility.

    What amazes me is that you think that's a cultural construct. The potential cost to a woman of a sexual encounter is far greater than the cost to a man. It's biology, not society that dictates this.

    And a man who does take responsibilty to protect his offspring is considered to be a genetic loser?

    Not at all. Humans are mostly monogamous because human children do better with both parents around. Nevertheless, it may still be genetically advantageous to subvert this situation to some extent. Men will do better genetically if they father more children, especially if there's a "sucker" to look after them. Women will do better genetically if they seek out the "best" genes for their children, and have someone around to help care for them. That seems to be exactly what happens.

    Now of course, being logical beings, we can make choices that are not in the best interests of our genes. We can choose to remain celibate, to use contraception, to marry someone we know to be infertile, or unhealthy or ugly. But, by and large, the majority of us behave in predictable ways. We find the "best" partner we can. Men look for young, healthy fertile women. Women look for strong, capable, powerful men. We do this even when it's not in our best interest to do so. Attraction doesn't follow the rules of logic.

  • Robdar
    Robdar
    He's not very good at surviving! If he was, he'd be very popular with most women, as he would have exactly the qualities their genes are looking for. The fact that he's not does mean that he's less likely to stray (after all, where would he go?), but the advantages of this are probably outweighed by the disadvantages - direct and indirect - of mating with someone who's less healthy and less capable.

    Obviously you are confusing a man's virility with his survival abilities. Just because a guy knows how to have sex doesn't mean that he knows how to survive. I know plenty of pretty, sexy people that are incredibly stupid.

    It is self evident that the "loser" father is a survivor. He is alive and healthy enough to father children. He stays around ensuring their survival. Are you saying that if a man was good looking that he would obviously stray? And if he is ugly, he is a loser and would take the opportunity to sow more of his ugly seed if only he had a chance? If it is only about genetic survival of the fittest, why do so many men have sex with ugly women?

    What about personality? Are you saying that a woman will only mate with a good looking guy? I have seen too many butt ugly guys with beautiful women, women who could have anybody they want for a mate. What's the attraction there? And don't tell me it's all about money.

    They're not "good" in a moral sense, but genes don't have morals...Don't forget, the amount of effort expended by a man in fathering a child is roughly equivalent to missing lunch.

    It makes no sense to expend any sort of energy towards reproduction if you do not ensure that your genes are going to survive afterwards. Also, if you don't mind, let's not make this a moral argument. Let's keep the topic on genetic survival. So, would it not be better, genetically, if the father sticks around to make sure that the children are protected and fed to survive?

    We also haven't spoken about masturbation. If we have these urges only for genetic survival, why do we masturbate? If it is only about genetic survival and reproduction, why do we find oral sex and kissing to be so bukky dukky do?

    Of course, and a mother who settles for someone unhealthy and unattractive will likely produce children who do the same. That lineage won't last as long as a combination of healthier, pickier people

    Again, are you saying that only ugly, unhealthy people are monogamous? Also, what is so picky about the man who will sow his seed anywhere? Nothing special about him, as far as I can see.

    Those who "can't cut it in the sack" get the same treatment they get in most societies and cultures. They lose sexual partners.

    Hehehe, I know this to be true. However, that is only about fun. Those who can't cut it in the sack may still be able to be good survivors. (delete comment about my ex husband)

    Humans - men and women - are sexual beings and behave essentially the same way regardless of culture.

    Didn't you read any of the links that I supplied? Humans do not behave essentially the same way regardless of culture.

    There seems to be more of a difficulty accepting our similarities to other animals.

    Could it be that there are also difficulties brought about in struggling to find similarities where they do not necessarily exist?

    Oh, well, this argument is starting to go around in circles and nothing seems to be getting accomplished. I have enjoyed chatting with you, as always.

    Robyn

  • Guest 77
    Guest 77

    As a saying goes, "Promise them everything and give them nothing!" Yes women like suspense and intrigue.

    Guest 77

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    Obviously you are confusing a man's virility with his survival abilities. Just because a guy knows how to have sex doesn't mean that he knows how to survive. I know plenty of pretty, sexy people that are incredibly stupid.

    In the absence of contraception, a man who is able to have sex with a lot of women will be successful at reproducing and passing on his genes.

    It is self evident that the "loser" father is a survivor. He is alive and healthy enough to father children. He stays around ensuring their survival.

    Yes, on paper, all the nice guys look like a great catch. But women aren't attracted to certain men. Mostly, men who can't get other women. A man who can get any woman he wants is more desirable than one who can only get those with lower standards. The children of an undesirable man are themselves likely to be undesirable. A peahen that doesn't care about fancy tail feathers will get a mate quite easily, but her offspring won't.

    Are you saying that if a man was good looking that he would obviously stray? And if he is ugly, he is a loser and would take the opportunity to sow more of his ugly seed if only he had a chance?

    Essentially, yes. Broadly speaking, men have sex as often as possible with as many women as possible.

    If it is only about genetic survival of the fittest, why do so many men have sex with ugly women?

    Because ugly women have lower standards. And when it comes to sex, men often have none.

    What about personality? Are you saying that a woman will only mate with a good looking guy? I have seen too many butt ugly guys with beautiful women, women who could have anybody they want for a mate. What's the attraction there? And don't tell me it's all about money.

    Often, it is about money. But personality in humans is also a survival trait. Physical beauty is a sign of health, but a winning personality is also a desirable characteristic in a partner in human society.

    It makes no sense to expend any sort of energy towards reproduction if you do not ensure that your genes are going to survive afterwards.

    Yes it does. Lots of animals do it. It makes perfect sense, as long as there is a reasonable chance that the offspring wll survive. Because the energy a man has to expend is so low (as I said before, similar to missing lunch) and the benefits are so great (50% of his genes may be passed on) then it's worthwhile to do it. It's not worthwhile for a woman to do it, because the expenditure of energy is so much greater.

    Also, if you don't mind, let's not make this a moral argument. Let's keep the topic on genetic survival.

    Fine. You seemed to be rejecting my arguments because you thought they were an excuse for immoral behaviour. My point that "genes do not have morals" was intended to keep the topic away from morality.

    So, would it not be better, genetically, if the father sticks around to make sure that the children are protected and fed to survive?

    Yes it would. The same way that it's better to work hard in an average paying job and save money rather than spending it on lottery tickets. But it can be worthwhile spending a mall amount of money which will hardly be missed on the chance of a big pay-out. And the odds in the "genetic lottery" are considerably better than in most financial ones.

    We also haven't spoken about masturbation. If we have these urges only for genetic survival, why do we masturbate?

    Because we can! Most animals would if they could. A male dog ideally wants to impregnate a bitch in heat, but if he can't find one, your leg will do. If he had opposable thumbs, he'd be using them. The urges are very strong.

    If it is only about genetic survival and reproduction, why do we find oral sex and kissing to be so bukky dukky do?

    It's all part of the mating game. Firstly, they're enjoyable because the genitals are being stimulated. Secondly, they help in pair-bonding.

    Again, are you saying that only ugly, unhealthy people are monogamous?

    No, but I'll bet you any money you like that statistically, they have fewer sexual partners than attractive, healthy people.

    Also, what is so picky about the man who will sow his seed anywhere? Nothing special about him, as far as I can see.

    I'll say it again but this is the very last time. Men don't have to be picky, women do. The cost of a brief sexual encounter with a sub-standard partner is miniscule for a man, but huge for a woman.

    Those who can't cut it in the sack may still be able to be good survivors.

    Yes, but they're unlikely to be good reproducers which counts more.

    Didn't you read any of the links that I supplied? Humans do not behave essentially the same way regardless of culture.

    Yes I did, and they do. Monogamy is almost universal with some polygyny. Polyandry is very rare. Virginity is prized in women in most cultures and infidelity by women is almost always punished more severely than infidelity by men. Fertility is universally prized. The standards of beauty vary remarkably little between cultures. There are exceptions to every rule of course, and it's always possible to find a tribe that behaves differently. There may be sound environmental reasons for this, or it may be just historical accident.

    Could it be that there are also difficulties brought about in struggling to find similarities where they do not necessarily exist?

    Could be, but it seems to me that the similarities are manifold, and often would be obvious if we just step back from our homocentric view of the world. One of the best books on this subject is The Naked Ape by Desmond Morris.

    Oh, well, this argument is starting to go around in circles and nothing seems to be getting accomplished.

    Well, can I ask you something then? If you don't believe that we behave in certain ways because of our genes, why do you think we behave as we do? Do you think our behaviour is based on whim, or something supernatural or what? Or do you not believe that we behave in the ways described at all?

    I have enjoyed chatting with you, as always.

    Likewise. Visit Smiley Central!


  • Robdar
    Robdar
    You seemed to be rejecting my arguments because you thought they were an excuse for immoral behaviour. My point that "genes do not have morals" was intended to keep the topic away from morality.

    Derek, you were the first to bring up morality, not I. Please show me where you think that I made rebuttal by mentioning morality. Whatever morality you thought that we were discussing is coming from your own interpretation. Not from something that I implied.

    Because we are starting to beat a dead horse, I am going to fly by the rest of your comments until we get to this one:

    Well, can I ask you something then? If you don't believe that we behave in certain ways because of our genes, why do you think we behave as we do? Do you think our behaviour is based on whim, or something supernatural or what? Or do you not believe that we behave in the ways described at all?

    Just because I believe in God does not mean that I believe in her/him/it/whatever in a fundy sort of way or think that s/he has any "higher" purpose for humankind. Nor do I think that s/he is going to come back to judge us for our perceptions of what may or not be moral. Also, I do not think that God and evolution cancel each other out. It hasn't got to be either/or, imo.

    I do believe in evolution, there is too much evidence pointing towards it. However, I do not think that enough research/information is available to be stating in unequivocal terms exactly what is going on with human sexuality.

    We can discuss the similarities that we share with the rest of the animal kingdom but that doesn't change the fact that our brains have evolved differently. It doesn't matter how you dissect them, there are still differences. Ours are bigger and we have well-developed frontal lobes. Our evolution has taken a different course from the rest of the animal kingdom.

    As far as what I think is going on in the the battle of the sexes, I think that both genders have a desire to dominate and to feel special about themselves.

    Males dominate by scoring. When they score, they get respect from the other men and see themselves as being superior to those men.

    Females dominate by snaring the man. If she "gets" the man, she thinks that she is more special than the other women and feels superior to them. She also gets respect from the women of the group.

    Whereas, I do agree that genetics play some part in what is happeing in human sexuality, I do not agree that genetics is all that it comes down to. IMO, the mind is the strongest aphrodisiac. When you add human traits like ego to the mix, the reaction can be quite dynamic.

    I hope that this answers your questions.

    Robyn

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    Derek, you were the first to bring up morality, not I. Please show me where you think that I made rebuttal by mentioning morality. Whatever morality you thought that we were discussing is coming from your own interpretation. Not from something that I implied.

    You said:

    what is so "good" about the genes of a philanderer who does not stay at home ensuring the survival of his offspring?

    I explained what could be good about them from a functional sense but highlighted that this was not necessarily what was good in a moral sense. That is where I brought up morality

    You also said:

    It seems to me that you are saying that it is okay for a man to cheat, to leave his children fatherless and not have to pay for or expend energy towards the consequences just as long as he gets a chance to sow his seed. But God forbid if a woman causes him to take some responsibilty. That is not okay. Especially if the child is not his.

    Whether or not something is "okay" to do seems to be a moral question. In any case, I only mentioned morality to point out that it was irrelevant to the discussion. It can sometimes be forgotten when discussing "good" genes and "bad" genes that these terms are used only in a functional, not a perjorative sense.

    We can discuss the similarities that we share with the rest of the animal kingdom but that doesn't change the fact that our brains have evolved differently. It doesn't matter how you dissect them, there are still differences. Ours are bigger and we have well-developed frontal lobes. Our evolution has taken a different course from the rest of the animal kingdom.

    Recently, yes. However, we are still - including our brains - products of evolution, and when we behave illogically, as in when women feel attracted to men who treat them badly (which was the original point of the discussion) it's difficult to say that this is because of our well-developed frontal lobes. It seems more likely that those aspects of our behaviour can be better explained by a genetic drive.

    Males dominate by scoring. When they score, they get respect from the other men and see themselves as being superior to those men.

    Females dominate by snaring the man. If she "gets" the man, she thinks that she is more special than the other women and feels superior to them. She also gets respect from the women of the group.

    But why? Do you think it's just a cultural thing that men are considered successful or superior if they can "score" with a lot of women while women are considered successful if they "snare" a good man? It seems to go beyond culture and is superbly explained by sociobiology.

    Just as an exercise, imagine a tribe made up of 50% utterly faithful people and 50% opportunistic cheaters. Basically, have the tribe have a philandering gene and half have a gene for fidelity (I'm simplifying the way genes work of course, but the basic principle is sound). After several generations, which gene is going to be more common in the group? An interesting thing to note is that the women will have more or less the same number of children whether they cheat or not. (A biological dictate, not a cultural one). Men who cheat will obviously father more children and for the most part these children will survive just as well as the ones they look after themselves, being cared for by a faithful man who wrongly believes they are his own. Without other factors coming into play, the fidelity gene will almost certainly be wiped out in a few generations.

    Whereas, I do agree that genetics play some part in what is happeing in human sexuality, I do not agree that genetics is all that it comes down to.

    Of course not, but where we make irrational decisions that nobody who was entirely controlled by a logical brain would make, there must be something influencing our behaviour. I believe the evidence shows overwhelmingly that this "something" is the same thing that influences the behaviour of every other animal on this planet - namely, their genes.

  • frenchbabyface
    frenchbabyface

    (((ROBYN ... you know ...))) TY

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Derek,

    You asked me what I believed. I told you what I believe. I did this even though you insulted me in the previous posts and keep parroting over and over what you have read in your sociobiology books. You just can't help but try to correct me without supplying proof, can you?

    You do not have any factual proof of anything that you are stating as fact. It is only research and, at this time, mere speculation regarding what the initial findings may mean. You ignore the parts of this research that do not go along with what you hope to be true. You act as if unfinished research is the gospel. I intentionally used the word, gospel, here.

    Now, I have tried to back out of this conversation in a way that we could both save face because I will admit that not all scientific research is in on either side of this debate. You, however cannot seem to do this.

    How long has it been since you left the witnesses? You will not convert me to your views of sociobiology by mere rote. Show me the proof.

    This thread is getting too monotonous for me. Why don't you read "Woman" by Pulitzer prize winner Natalie Angier? She rips to shreds certain sociobiological theories that you hold dear.

    Robyn

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    ((((FBF))))

    Kisses to you, my sweet.

    R

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