by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Because 1 Cor. 8:5,6 does not refer to all things being " of " Jesus, this presents the problem that only the Father is the source of creation, which doesn't fit your trinitarian viewpoint.
The Trinitarian viewpoint is that all three persons with the Godhead participated in creation. The trinitarian viewpoint does not teach that each necessarily shared the same function in the creation of all things. Thus all things can be "of" the Father yet "through" the Son.
Dean,
If some Jewish circles viewed Wisdom and the Word as angels, I don't believe the author of Hebrews would agree with that at all. For the Word that became flesh in John 1:14 is Jesus (read the whole chapter) , whom Hebrews 1 says is superior to angels. See also 1 Peter 1:12
By the way, in John 1:10 is Jesus making or creating the world?
Hooberus,
You say....
The Trinitarian viewpoint is that all three persons with the Godhead 'participated' in creation.
Why do you only say 'participated' now. You seem to have watered down the roles of your trinity Godhead.
The point is, that, if God is a Trinity then all three persons are the source of creation regardless of what each did. Therefore it should be said that 'all things' are " of " each one of them.
Once again , 1 Cor. 8: 5,6 only states that all things are "of " the Father. Only the Father is the Source of creation. Thus only He is the Creator.
By the way, the "Trinitarian Viewpoint" can say what it wants. It means nothing unless scripture backs it up.
This verse , most definately , does not back it up.
Dean.
Kenneson,
Now , of course I have read the whole chapter of John - Many times. Jesus is the embodiement of the Logos.
The point I was making that the Jews of that time were familiar with writings ( i.e. non-canonical writings ) that talked about Personified Wisdom and The Logos and the Angel of the Lord etc.
These 'figures' were in some circles thought to be angelic figures. Thus when like minded ones read John chapter 1 for instance, they would not automatically think of a triune Godhead but rather of High Ranking Angelic figures acting " with " God.
Hebrews, yes it outlines the superiority of the SON over the Angels.
However , put your objective head on for a moment. IF the Son, the LOGOS was a High Ranking Angel like a Seraphim then he would be superior to the Angels who are the lowest ranked Bene Ha Elohim. Yes !
By the way , the Son's superiority is contrasted by his Sonship. Yet, as I have just observed, the Angels were Bene Ha Elohim and were thus themselves by their very nature SONS of God.
The point is that the Son Jesus is the ONLY-BEGOTTEN SON. His Sonship is superior to the Angels but they are both Sons.
The 1st Peter quote is interesting. I will " take avizandum ' on that one.
The John 1 : 10 reference still refers to his Agency in creation as the underlying greek means by or through - not "OF".
By the way if you want to look into the area of the LOGOS and the begetting of the Son re: John chapter 1 etc. Have a look at the Unitarian thinking of Anthony J. Buzzard.
He makes some challenging thoughts on the Word / Logos.
Dean.
Dean,
There is no hint in Hebrews or anywhere else in Scripture that Jesus is a higher ranking angel or son of God (nevertheless an angel) and that is what makes him superior to the lower ranking angels (sons of God). As a matter of fact, Heb. 1:6 shows that Jesus is not merely a higher angel since he has all God's angels worshipping Jesus. The same worshipful honor that is given to the Father is given to the Son (see also John 5:23 and Rev. 5:12, 13 and Rev. 1:5-6). Is not such speculation an attempt to make the position of the Son of God just a tad higher than the other angels, nevertheless keep him on the level of angels? Isn't this also pretty much the same type of argument that maintains that Jesus is a god, yet Moses, the judges and angels are also gods? So, by your reckoning are we supposed to be henotheists or monotheists?
Yes, angels are called sons of God. Likewise, Christians are adopted sons of God. Yet only Jesus is called the only begotten Son of God, who is in the bosom position with the Father. (John1: 14, 18). And this Son (Heb. 1:5) is the Lord who laid the foundation of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works of your hands. (Heb. 1:8, 10) He is no mere higher angel.
Although the New Jerome Biblical Commentary does say "there is no allusion to the preexistence of Christ [in 1 Cor.8:6]", James Dunn (cited by NJBC) actually supports the point that Dean makes - "that Jesus was the Agency that the Father used to accomplish his work of creation". Dunn says, in Christology in the Making (London, 1980, p.182), that 1 Cor.8:6b "asserts simply that Christ is the action of God, Christ embodies the creative power of God".
Dunn also speaks of angelology elsewhere in the book.
Jewish Christians of the second and third centuries specifically affirmed that Christ was an angel or archangel (Tertullian, De carne Christi (On the flesh of Christ) 14.5; Epiphanius, Panarion (Medicine-chest) 30.16.4; Clement Recognitions II.42; Homilies XVIII.4). As for more 'orthodox' second-century Christian writers, Hermas seems to have been influenced by this understanding of Christ as the chief archangel (Shepherd of Hermas: Visions V.1; Similitudes VII.5; IX.6.1), and Justin makes a great play of the OT theophanies in his proof of the pre-existence of Christ, including those where the one who appears is identified as 'the angel of the Lord' (e.g. Dialogue 56.4,10; 58.3; 59:1; 61:1; 128.1) - Christology in the Making, p.132.
Earnest
Earnest,
Some early Jewish Christian writers indeed concluded that Jesus was an angel or archangel, but that certainly isn't the conclusion of Scriptures.
The Father himself called Jesus his "beloved Son" at Jesus' baptism and Transfiguration (Mt. 3:17; 17:5)
Moreover, John calls him the only begotten Son (Jn. 1:14, 18) and Jesus referred to himself as "the Son" who knows the Father, (John 10:15 and 36-38) as distinct from the "servants" or "messengers" (including prophets and angels) that God had earlier sent to his people. (Heb. 1:1-3 and John 3:31, 36). Jesus is always depicted as superior and separate from angels and never as one. See Mt. 11:27; 21:34-38; 24:36. He calls himself "the only Son of God" (John 3:10,16; 10:36-38) and in John 3:18 Jesus asks for faith in the name of the only Son of God. In the centurions exclamation before the crucified Christ, "Truly this man was the Son of God," that Christian confession is already heard. (Matt. 27:54) And the Apostles can confess after his Resurrrection, that Jesus' divine sonship becomes manifest in the power of his glorified humanity. See Rom. 1:3-4 and Acts 13:33.
Since Heb. 1:4-6 indicates that all God's angels are commanded to worship Jesus, he could not be an angel, albeit a higher ranking one. Angel worship is expressly forbidden (Col. 2:18 and Rev. 22:9-10) Since angels were created through and for Jesus (Col. 1:16), he could not be a creature like one of them. Is it any wonder that 1 Peter 3:22 says that "angels and authorities and powers were made subject to him [Jesus]"?
P.S. Jesus is the center of the angelic world. They belong to him because they were created through and for him. (Col. 1:16) They are HIS angels and he is separate ( not one of them). Mt. 24:31 and 25:31
Hebrews 1:6 is demonstrating the Superiority of Jesus to the angels by showing that all the Angels worship him, thus He could not be an angel if all the angels worship him.
Hebrews 1:6 is a quote from Psalm 97:7 which has all the angels worshiping Jehovah (not Michael)!
Psalms 97:1 Jehovah reigneth; let the earth rejoice; Let the multitude of isles be glad.
Psalms 97:2 Clouds and darkness are round about him: Righteousness and justice are the foundation of his throne.
Psalms 97:3 A fire goeth before him, And burneth up his adversaries round about.
Psalms 97:4 His lightnings lightened the world: The earth saw, and trembled.
Psalms 97:5 The mountains melted like wax at the presence of Jehovah, At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.
Psalms 97:6 The heavens declare his righteousness, And all the peoples have seen his glory.
Psalms 97:7 Let all them be put to shame that serve graven images, That boast themselves of idols: Worship him, all ye gods. ASV
Hebrews 1:6 And when he again bringeth in the firstborn into the world he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.ASV
However , put your objective head on for a moment. IF the Son, the LOGOS was a High Ranking Angel like a Seraphim then he would be superior to the Angels who are the lowest ranked Bene Ha Elohim. Yes !
The text does not say that Jesus is superior to the "other" angels, but to angels, all angels, etc.
Also the seraphim worship Jesus Psalm 97:7 with Hebrews 1:6 (see above)
Also the seraphim worship Jesus (compare Isaiah 6 with John 12:41).
Isaiah Chapter 6
1: In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
2: Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
3: And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
4: And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
5: Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
6: Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:
7: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
8: Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
9: And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10: Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
John Chapter 12
37: But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39: Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40: He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41: These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42: Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
