Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him... Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX

    In what way does Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX demonstrate the superiority of Jehovah to the angels?

    Could Jehovah also be an angel if "all the angels" worship/bow down to him?

    Is Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX saying that "all the angels" worship/bow down to him? or is it saying that all the other angels worship/bow down to him"

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Earnest,

    I left Jehovah's Witnesses in 1966. I have a New World Translation (1961 edition) that uses worship, not obeisance in Heb. 1:6. Why is your version different? The other passages you mention do use bowing down and obeisance, but why did they not originally use obeisance here? It seems to me when the Watchtower Society used worship in this passage they meant worship (unless, of course, they failed to catch what this was really saying and had to change it later to make it appear that Jesus wasn't really being worshipped by angels).

    In the Old Testament when people called upon the name of Jehovah, were they not invoking, adoring and worshiping Him? Many places in the New Testament, we are reminded to call upon the name of Jesus. Why would this not mean that we are to invoke, adore and worship Jesus? (Acts 9:14 and 21; Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:12) Is prayer not directed to both Jesus and the Father in Acts 7:59-60; 1 Thess. 3:11; 2 Thess. 2:16-17; 1 Tim. 1:2, etc.?

    In Rev. 5:8, 11-14 and 7:15-17 we see both the Father and the Lamb receiving identical worship. Both Jesus and the Father constitute the Temple (Rev. 21:22), both possess the throne (Rev. 22:1).

    Rev. 1:17

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Kenneson:

    ...(unless, of course, they failed to catch what this was really saying and had to change it later to make it appear that Jesus wasn't really being worshipped by angels).

    BINGO!!!! We have a winner!!!!

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    hooberus,

    The quote that the Father applies to the Son [in Hebrews 1:6] is: And let all the angels of God worship him. The phrase he saith before the quote And let all the angels of God worship him shows that the Father is starting His quote at the words And let . . . Hense I see no need to look for a hidden LXX variant containing the words when he bringeth in the firstbegotten in the world, along with the other words. The phrase when he bringeth his firstbegotten into the world is not being directly quoted by the Father only the words that follow the term he saith

    Yes, I agree, and my conclusion that those OT verses would need to be in the context of bringing the firstbegotten into the world was mistaken. It is also clear that whichever verse the writer of Hebrews was quoting from, he clearly thought of those bowing down as "angels" not idols, as you say.

    Could Jehovah also be an angel if "all the angels" worship/bow down to him?

    We know that Jehovah is not an angel as he is the source of the messages which the angels (meaning messengers) carry. But your question is really one of semantics, so you may as well ask "could Jehovah also be a god if "all the gods" worship/bow down to him", or "could you be a man if all men bow down to you". The object of reverence is obviously not included in those who revere him.

    LittleToe,

    I may have missed this, but in what way do you see Jesus as being the unique "Son of God", if he is Michael, and hence only one of several archangels?

    One way in which he is unique is that he is described as the firstbegotten in Hebrews 1:6. There is only one who is first and you know how highly the firstborn was considered in Bible times.

    Kenneson,

    I left Jehovah's Witnesses in 1966.

    A notable year for both of us. I gave my first Ministry School bible reading (Proverbs 2) in 1966.

    I have a New World Translation (1961 edition) that uses worship, not obeisance in Heb. 1:6. Why is your version different?

    If you want to know why this verse was revised it would be best to ask them rather than me but I can conjecture. In the Watchtower of 11/15/70, p.704, it discussed the meaning of Hebrews 1:6 and said:

    In view of all this, how are we to understand Hebrews 1:6, which shows that even the angels render "worship" to the resurrected Jesus Christ? While many translations of this text render pro·sky·néo as "worship," some render it by such expressions as "bow before" (The Bible?An American Translation) and "pay homage" (The New English Bible). No matter what English term is used, the original Greek remains the same and the understanding of what it is that the angels render to Christ must accord with the rest of the Scriptures.

    If the rendering "worship" is preferred, then it must be understood that such "worship" is only of a relative kind. For Jesus himself emphatically stated to Satan that "it is Jehovah your God you must worship [form of pro·sky·ne#o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service." (Matt. 4:8-10; Luke 4:7, 8)

    My conjecture is that when the first translation was issued proskuneo was rendered as "worship" because one of the principles of the Translation Committee was "to assign one meaning to each major word and hold to that meaning as far as the context permits". However, the job of a translator is to convey the meaning of the original language and, as we have previously discussed, proskuneo carries a different meaning when it is not directed to God. As the English word "worship" doesn't carry quite the same nuance I suggest it was thought more accurate to render it as obeisance whenever it was not directed to God. Seems reasonable to me.
    In the Old Testament when people called upon the name of Jehovah, were they not invoking, adoring and worshiping Him? Many places in the New Testament, we are reminded to call upon the name of Jesus. Why would this not mean that we are to invoke, adore and worship Jesus? (Acts 9:14 and 21; Acts 22:16; 1 Cor. 1:12) Is prayer not directed to both Jesus and the Father in Acts 7:59-60; 1 Thess. 3:11; 2 Thess. 2:16-17; 1 Tim. 1:2, etc.?

    Of course all Christians concur with those scriptures and give Christ such reverence, but I think the problem lies in the understanding of the word "worship". If you understand it as something that should only be given to God (as many people do) then naturally you would not use it to express your feelings for anyone else. If you make a distinction in the meaning of the word when applied to God and to others then you would be using it in the biblical sense of the word.

    However, no where do I read that Jesus had angelic nature. Angels were made by Jesus, but where does it say Jesus was made an angel? Rather, he has God's divine nature.

    One of the reasons that early Christians viewed Jesus as an angelic being was because of the messianic description in Isaiah 9:6 (LXX) :

    For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Angel of great counsel [megales boules aggelos]: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

    For instance, Clement of Alexandria cites Theodotus, a Valentinian, as saying:

    And when the Father has given all power, and the Pleroma has assented, 'the Angel of Great Counsel' was sent out and has become the 'head of all things' after the Father. Because 'everything has been made in him, both things visible and things invisible, thrones, dominions, kingdoms', divinities, worships. - Excerpta xliii. 2

    A student of Origen wrote of him:

    He, who is great, spoke accordingly of one who is greater, either an angel among the others, or even himself the 'Angel of Great Counsel', the common Savior of all, who alone, because of his perfection, was ordained to be his guardian. - Panegyris iv. 42, SC 148: 112.

    Justin uses the term 'Angel of Great Counsel' in reference to the Son (Dialogues lxxvi) and also says :

    That one [God the Father] and the Son who came from him and taught us these things, and the host of other good angels who follow him and are made like him, and the prophetic Spirit we revere and worship. - First Apology, chapter 6.

    There are also a number of other scriptures which don't speak so directly of Jesus as being an angel but could be understood in that way. For example, Galations 4:14 says :

    And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

    Revelation 10:1 speaks of a "strong angel" descending from heaven "arrayed with a cloud, and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as the sun, and his feet were as fiery pillars". Compare that with Revelation 1:15 which says of Jesus "his feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace" and the many scriptures that speak of him coming with a cloud.

    I would suggest that there was a lot of confusion amongst the early Christians as to just who and what Jesus was. They accepted him as the messiah and knew he was at the right hand of God. The only spirit creatures that they knew of were angels, seraphs, cherubs and archangel (and the demons of course) so it would follow for many that Jesus must be the leader of these angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7). Revelation 19:11-16 shows he has not given up that role.

    Earnest

    Edited to amend scripture reference Revelation 1:10 to Revelation 10:1.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Earnest,

    According to W.T. interpretation then, how does Heb. 1:6 vary from Rev. 22:8-9? Isn't proskuneo used in both instances? If the angel in Rev. cannot receive relative worship proskuneo (obeisance), why does God command it to be given to his Son Jesus in Heb. 1:6 (especially if he, too, is an angel according to your belief)?

    In Gal. 4:14 it is a bit difficult to understand what Paul meant especially in view of his attitude towards angels in Gal. 1:8 and 3:19 and 1 Cor. 4:9 and 13:1. I certainly don't believe that he was identifying Jesus to an angel of God.

    In Rev. 1:1 God sent forth his angel to John to give witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw, but verses 10-19 do not refer to this angel. Verse 13 identifies the voice of verse 12 as belonging to one like a son of man and verse 17 "the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but look! I am living foever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades." This is Jesus, not the angel. See also Mark 8:31

    How does Jesus' leadership of angels make him one? After all, he sustains them, is superior to them and he is distinct from them.They exist for him and are HIS ANGELS. Heb. 1:3-4, John 1:3 and Col. 1:16, 17 They are at his disposal to do his bidding, not vice versa. Matt. 24:31 and Matt. 25:31 See also Eph. 1:20-22 and Phil. 2:9-11. No where does it say that his superiority to angels is because of rank among them; it is because of SONSHIP.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    P.S. When I say no where does it say or do I read, I mean Scripture; so counterclaiming by citiing what church fathers said the Scriptures said, doesn't cut it. I mentioned that before.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Kenneson,

    When I say no where does it say or do I read, I mean Scripture; so counterclaiming by citiing what church fathers said the Scriptures said, doesn't cut it.

    Isaiah 9:6 (LXX) is scripture.

    For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose princely rule [arche] is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Angel of great counsel [megales boules aggelos]: for I will bring peace upon the princes [archontas], and health to him.

    However, as we have discussed, aggelos has the basic meaning of messenger and so this passage could be read as "Messenger of great counsel". Citing what church fathers have to say does show that when it came to understanding this verse many ante-Nicene christians understood it to refer to the "Angel of great counsel", which is quite likely the intended meaning as it combines the descriptions of "Wonderful", "Counselor" and "mighty God" in the Hebrew.

    According to W.T. interpretation then, how does Heb. 1:6 vary from Rev. 22:8-9? Isn't proskuneo used in both instances? If the angel in Rev. cannot receive relative worship proskuneo (obeisance), why does God command it to be given to his Son Jesus in Heb. 1:6 (especially if he, too, is an angel according to your belief)?

    I am not here to defend W.T. interpretation, but as I share their view that Jesus is the firstbegotten of spirit beings I must agree that Rev.22:8,9 (where the angel says to John not to proskuneson before him) has puzzled me. Especially in view of the fact that there are many occasions where there is no objection to proskuneo of men or angels (see my post on this thread dated 16-Oct-03 01:38 GMT). If the angel objected to John showing reverence, why did Daniel not object to the much greater reverence (proskuneo LXX) shown him at Daniel 2:46 ? Or why does Jesus say he will make "those from the synagogue of Satan" give relative worship (proskunesousin) to the angel of the congregation in Philadelphia (Revelation 3:9) ? I think the answer can be found in the reason the angel gives to John, namely that "all I [the angel] am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers". I think that once Jesus had paid the ransom and opened up the way for men to be kings and priests in heaven, to be brothers of Christ (Roman 8:29), to judge angels (1 Corinthians 6:3)...that the angels themselves felt they could not receive such adulation from those who were to be kings, priests and judges in heaven. Of course the Son, who is the Word of God, who has been exalted to the right hand of God (Philippians 2:9), who has become better than the angels as he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs (Hebrew 1:4), who is leader of the angels (Revelation 19:11-16), is worthy of their proskuneo.

    In Rev. 1:1 God sent forth his angel to John to give witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw, but verses 10-19 do not refer to this angel.

    Sorry, that reference was wrong. I had meant to compare the "feet were like fine copper when glowing in a furnace" (Revelation 1:15) with the "feet were as fiery pillars" in Revelation 10:1 [not 1:10].

    How does Jesus' leadership of angels make him one?

    It doesn't, of itself. But when you read of "the Lord Jesus with his powerful angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7) and of "the armies that were in heaven following him on white horses" (Revelation 19:14) and also read of "Michael [the archangel] and his angels" waging war in heaven (Revelation 12:7) then it seems to speak of the same person. If you also read of Michael described as "the great prince" standing in behalf of God's people (Daniel 12:1) and know that in the same verse that says Jesus is the "Angel of great counsel" it also says the "princely rule" [arche from archon] is upon his shoulder" (Isaiah 9:6 LXX) there is no doubt in my mind it is speaking of the same person.

    Earnest

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Earnest,

    Yes, Is. 9:6 is Scripture, but my understanding differs from those fathers who refer to the angel of great counsel. The titles given in the passage are Wonder-Counselor (Wonderful Counselor in NWT), God-Hero(Mighty God in NWT), Father-Forever (Eternal Father in NWT) , Prince of Peace. Wonder-Counselor, to me, doesn't speak of an angel, but rather of the remarkable wisdom and prudence of the child mentioned at the beginning of the verse. No mention of an angel at all in this verse. This son (Isaiah 7:10-14, 8:8 is identified as Immanuel; compare to Matt. 1:23) will need no advisers as Ahaz did. Wonder-Counselor doesn't identify the child or son with an angel, but rather likens him to Jehovah (Isaiah 28:29) Now God-Hero has the child bearing a title that Jehovah also bears (Isaiah 10:20-21), certainly a title no angel would bear. See also Jer. 32:18. The princely rule (dominion in some translations) refers to Immanuel's authority (see Heb. 1:3 and Matt. 28:18) including over angels. The angels are mutable, transitory beings(Heb. 1:7 compared to Psalm 104:4) , unlike the Son, whose rule is everlasting and who has a permanent kingdom (Heb. 1:8, 13)

    On Michael the Archangel.

    In Dan. 10:13 Michael is one of the "chief princes" who assists Gabriel (Dan 9:21 and 10:5-13, 21) on behalf of the Jews against the "prince" of the kingdom of Persia. Michael is "your prince" who strengthens Gabriel, and in 12:1 he is the "great prince who stands over your people." Michael is conceived as the heavenly spirit who watches over the Jews; and the "prince of the Persians" implies the conception of a guardian angel for each nation. Also, it is rather ironic, it seems to me, that a powerful angel as Michael is portrayed in Rev. 12:7 can do little more than rebuke Satan in Jude 9. Be that as it may, both Gabriel and Michael, and all other archangels, seraphs and angels were created by the Son to do his bidding. And the Son, still isn't an archangel.

  • Earnest
    Earnest

    Kenneson,

    Yes, Is. 9:6 is Scripture, but my understanding differs from those fathers who refer to the angel of great counsel. The titles given in the passage are Wonder-Counselor (Wonderful Counselor in NWT), God-Hero(Mighty God in NWT), Father-Forever (Eternal Father in NWT) , Prince of Peace. Wonder-Counselor, to me, doesn't speak of an angel, but rather of the remarkable wisdom and prudence of the child mentioned at the beginning of the verse. No mention of an angel at all in this verse.

    The titles you are referring to are translations of Isaiah 9:6 in Hebrew. My reference to this verse was to the Greek translation of Isaiah which was used by the writers of the NT (cp. Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23) and which I indicated by LXX which is the symbol for the Septuagint. This verse reads :

    For a child is born to us [oti paidion egennethe emin], and a son is given to us [huios kai edothe emin], whose princely rule [ou e arche] is upon his shoulder [egenethe epi tou omou autou]: and his name is called [kai kaleitai to onoma autou] the Angel of great counsel [megales Boules aggelos]: for I will bring [ego gar aeo] peace upon the princes [eirenen epi tous archontas], peace and health to him [eirenen kai hugieian auto].

    You also said:

    Also, it is rather ironic, it seems to me, that a powerful angel as Michael is portrayed in Rev. 12:7 can do little more than rebuke Satan in Jude 9.

    You may see it as ironic, or you could see it as reminiscent of the obedience Christ showed to his Father (Philippians 2:5-8) - waiting for the appointed time rather than taking matters into his own hands.

    Earnest

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Earlier Justin Martyr was quoted as refering to Christ as an angel. I think that Justin referred to Christ as an angel possibly due to Christ being a messenger. However Martyr definitely thought of Christ as God and Lord.

      Chapter LVI.-God Who Appeared to Moses is Distinguished from God the Father.

    "Moses, then, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that He who appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mamre is God, sent with the two angels in His company to judge Sodom by Another who remains ever in the supercelestial places, invisible to all men, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe to be Maker and Father of all things; for he speaks thus: `God appeared to him under the oak in Mature, as he sat at his tent-door at noontide. And lifting up his eyes, he saw, and behold, three men stood before him; and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the door of his tent; and he bowed himself toward the ground, and said; '" 178 (and so on; ) 179 "`Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord: and he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward the adjacent country, and beheld, and, lo, a flame went up from the earth, like the smoke of a furnace.'" And when I had made an end of quoting these words, I asked them if they had understood them.

    And they said they had understood them, but that the passages adduced brought forward no proof that there is any other God or Lord, or that the Holy Spirit says so, besides the Maker of all things.

    Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to 180 the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mature, as the Scripture asserts? "

    He said, "Assuredly."

    "Was He one of those three," I said, "whom Abraham saw, and whom the Holy Spirit of prophecy describes as men? "

    He said, "No; but God appeared to him, before the vision of the three. Then those three whom the Scripture calls men, were angels; two of them sent to destroy Sodom, and one to announce the joyful tidings to Sarah, that she would bear a son; for which cause he was sent, and having accomplished his errand, went away." 181

    "How then," said I, "does the one of the three, who was in the tent, and who said, `I shall return to thee hereafter, and Sarah shall have a son, ' 182 appear to have returned when Sarah had begotten a son, and to be there declared, by the prophetic word, God? But that you may clearly discern what I say, listen to the words expressly employed by Moses; they are these: `And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian bond-woman, whom she bore to Abraham, sporting with Isaac her son, and said to Abraham, Cast out this bond-woman and her son; for the son of this bond-woman shall not share the inheritance of my son Isaac. And the matter seemed very grievous in Abraham's sight, because of his son. But God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman. In all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken to her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.' 183 Have you perceived, then, that He who said under the oak that He would return, since He knew it would be necessary to advise Abraham to do what Sarah wished him, came back as it is written; and is God, as the words declare, when they so speak: `God said to Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the son, and because of the bond-woman? '" I inquired. And Trypho said, "Certainly; but you have not proved from this that there is another God besides Him who appeared to Abraham, and who also appeared to the other patriarchs and prophets. You have proved, however, that we were wrong in believing that the three who were in the tent with Abraham were all angels."

    I replied again, "If I could not have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of those three is God, and is called Angel, 184 because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes [messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation."

    "Assuredly," he said, "for up to this moment this has been our belief."

    Then I replied, "Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,-numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done 185 anything which He who made the world-above whom there is no other God-has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with."

    And Trypho said, "Prove now that this is the case, that we also may agree with you. For we do not understand you to affirm that He has done or said anything contrary to the will of the Maker of all things."

    Then I said, "The Scripture just quoted by me will make this plain to you. It is thus: `The sun was risen on the earth, and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar); and the Lord rained on Sodom sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven, and overthrew these cities and all the neighbourhood.'" 186

    Then the fourth of those who had remained with Trypho said, "It 187 must therefore necessarily be said that one of the two angels who went to Sodom, and is named by Moses in the Scripture Lord, is different from Him who also is God and appeared to Abraham." 188

    "It is not on this ground solely," I said, "that it must be admitted absolutely that some other one is called Lord by the Holy Spirit besides Him who is considered Maker of all things; not solely [for what is said] by Moses, but also [for what is said] by David. For there is written by him: `The Lord says to my Lord, Sit on My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool, ' 189 as I have already quoted. And again, in other words: `Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever. A sceptre of equity is the sceptre of Thy kingdom: Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.' 190 If, therefore, you assert that the Holy Spirit calls some other one God and Lord, besides the Father of all things and His Christ, answer me; for I undertake to prove to you from Scriptures themselves, that He whom the Scripture calls Lord is not one of the two angels that went to Sodom, but He who was with them, and is called God, that appeared to Abraham."

    And Trypho said, "Prove this; for, as you see, the day advances, and we are not prepared for such perilous replies; since never yet have we heard any man investigating, or searching into, or proving these matters; nor would we have tolerated your conversation, had you not referred everything to the Scriptures: 191 for you are very zealous in adducing proofs from them; and you are of opinion that there is no God above the Maker of all things."

    Then I replied, "You are aware, then, that the Scripture says, `And the Lord said to Abraham, Why did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I truly conceive? for I am old. Is anything impossible with God? At the time appointed shall I return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.' 192 And after a little interval: `And the men rose up from thence, and looked towards Sodom and Gomorrah; and Abraham went with them, to bring them on the way. And the Lord said, I will not conceal from Abraham, my servant, what I do.' 193 And again, after a little, it thus says: `The Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, 194 and their sins are very grievous. I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to their cry which has come unto me; and if not, that I may know. And the men turned away thence, and went to Sodom. But Abraham was standing before the Lord; and Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt Thou destroy the righteous with the wicked? '" 195 (and so on, 196 for I do not think fit to write over again the same words, having written them all before, but shall of necessity give those by which I established the proof to Trypho and his companions. Then I proceeded to what follows, in which these words are recorded: ) "`And the Lord went His way as soon as He had left communing with Abraham; and [Abraham] went to his place. And there came two angels to Sodom at even. And Lot sat in the gate of Sodom; ' 197 and what follows until, `But the men put forth their hands, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door of the house; ' 198 and what follows till, `And the angels laid hold on his hand, and on the hand of his wife, and on the hands of his daughters, the Lord being merciful to him. And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that they said, Save, save thy life. Look not behind thee, nor stay in all the neighbourhood; escape to the mountain, lest thou be taken along with [them]. And Lot said to them, I beseech [Thee], O Lord, since Thy servant hath found grace in Thy sight, and Thou hast magnified Thy righteousness, which Thou showest towards me in saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountain, lest evil overtake me, and I die. Behold, this city is near to flee unto, and it is small: there I shall be safe, since it is small; and any soul shall live. And He said to him, Behold, I have accepted thee 199 also in this matter, so as not to destroy the city for which thou hast spoken. Make haste to save thyself there; for I shall not do anything till thou be come thither. Therefore he called the name of the city Segor (Zoar). The sun was risen upon the earth; and Lot entered into Segor (Zoar). And the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and He overthrew these cities, and all the neighbourhood.' " 200 And after another pause I added: "And now have you not perceived, my friends, that one of the three, who is both God and Lord, and ministers to Him who is in the heavens, is Lord of the two angels? For when [the angels] proceeded to Sodom, He remained behind, and communed with Abraham in the words recorded by Moses; and when He departed after the conversation, Abraham went back to his place. And when he came [to Sodom], the two angels no longer conversed with Lot, but Himself, as the Scripture makes evident; and He is the Lord who received commission from the Lord who [remains] in the heavens, i.e., the Maker of all things, to inflict upon Sodom and Gomorrah the [judgments] which the Scripture describes in these terms: `The Lord rained down upon Sodom and Gomorrah sulphur and fire from the Lord out of heaven.' "

      Chapter LVII.-The Jew Objects, Why is He Said to Have Eaten, If He Be God? Answer of Justin.

    Then Trypho said when I was silent, "That Scripture compels us to admit this, is manifest; but there is a matter about which we are deservedly at a loss-namely, about what was said to the effect that [the Lord] ate what was prepared and placed before him by Abraham; and you would admit this."

    I answered, "It is written that they ate; and if we believe 201 that it is said the three ate, and not the two alone-who were really angels, and are nourished in the heavens, as is evident to us, even though they are not nourished by food similar to that which mortals use-(for, concerning the sustenance of manna which supported your fathers in the desert, Scripture speaks thus, that they ate angels' food): [if we believe that three ate], then I would say that the Scripture which affirms they ate bears the same meaning as when we would say about fire that it has devoured all things; yet it is not certainly understood that they ate, masticating with teeth and jaws. So that not even here should we be at a loss about anything, if we are acquainted even slightly with figurative modes of expression, and able to rise above them."

    And Trypho said, "It is possible that [the question] about the mode of eating may be thus explained: [the mode, that is to say, ] in which it is written, they took and ate what had been prepared by Abraham: so that you may now proceed to explain to us how this God who appeared to Abraham, and is minister to God the Maker of all things, being born of the Virgin, became man, of like passions with all, as you said previously."

    Then I replied, "Permit me first, Trypho, to collect some other proofs on this head, so that you, by the large number of them, may be persuaded of [the truth of] it, and thereafter I shall explain what you ask."

    And he said, "Do as seems good to you; for I shall be thoroughly pleased."

    http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4321_884875

      Chapter XXXVI.-He Proves that Christ is Called Lord of Hosts.

    Then he replied, "Let these things be so as you say-namely, that it was foretold Christ would suffer, and be called a stone; and after His first appearance, in which it had been announced He would suffer, would come in glory, and be Judge finally of all, and eternal King and Priest. Now show if this man be He of whom these prophecies were made."

    And I said, "As you wish, Trypho, I shall come to these proofs which you seek in the fitting place; but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts, and Jacob, in parable by the Holy Spirit; and your interpreters, as God says, are foolish, since they say that reference is made to Solomon and not to Christ, when he bore the ark of testimony into the temple which he built. The Psalm of David is this: `The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and all that dwell therein. He hath rounded it upon the seas, and prepared it upon the floods. Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who shall stand in His holy place? He that is clean of hands and pure of heart: who has not received his soul in vain, and has not sworn guilefully to his neighbour: he shall receive blessing from the Lord, and mercy from God his Saviour. This is the generation of them that seek the Lord, that seek the face of the God of Jacob. 92 Lift up your gates, ye rulers; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The Lord strong and mighty in battle. Lift up your gates, ye rulers; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, He is the King of glory.' 93 Accordingly, it is shown that Solomon is not the Lord of hosts; but when our Christ rose from the dead and ascended to heaven, the rulers in heaven, under appointment of God, are commanded to open the gates of heaven, that He who is King of glory may enter in, and having ascended, may sit on the right hand of the Father until He make the enemies His footstool, as has been made manifest by another Psalm. For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, `Who is this King of glory? 'And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, `The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.' For every one will confess that not one of those who presided over the gates of the temple at Jerusalem would venture to say concerning Solomon, though he was so glorious a king, or concerning the ark of testimony, `Who is this King of glory? '

    (as a side note Justin thought of the Holy Spirit as a "person" see above)

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