Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  hooberus

  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4613_975954

  Chapter LXIV.-Justin Adduces Other Proofs to the Jew, Who Denies that He Needs This Christ.

  Here Trypho said, "Let Him be recognised as Lord and Christ and God, as the Scriptures declare, by you of the Gentiles, who have from His name been all called Christians; but we who are servants of God that made this same [Christ], do not require to confess or worship Him."

  To this I replied, "If I were to be quarrelsome and light-minded like you, Trypho, I would no longer continue to converse with you, since you are prepared not to understand what has been said, but only to return some captious answer; 241 but now, since I fear the judgment of God, I do not state an untimely opinion concerning any one of your nation, as to whether or not some of them may be saved by the grace of the Lord of Sabaoth. Therefore, although you act wrongfully, I shall continue to reply to any proposition you shall bring forward, and to any contradiction which you make; and, in fact, I do the very same to all men of every nation, who wish to examine along with me, or make inquiry at me, regarding this subject. Accordingly, if you had bestowed attention on the Scriptures previously quoted by me, you would already have understood, that those who are saved of your own nation are saved through this 242 [man], and partake of His lot; and you would not certainly have asked me about this matter. I shall again repeat the words of David previously quoted by me, and beg of you to comprehend them, and not to act wrongfully, and stir each other up to give merely some contradiction. The words which David speaks, then, are these: `The Lord has reigned; let the nations be angry: [it is] He who sits upon the cherubim; let the earth be shaken. The Lord is great in Zion; and He is high above all the nations. Let them confess Thy great name, for it is fearful and holy; and the honour of the king loves judgment. Thou hast prepared equity; judgment and righteousness hast Thou performed in Jacob. Exalt the Lord our God, and worship the footstool of His feet; for He is holy. Moses and Aaron among His priests, and Samuel among them that call upon His name; they called on the Lord, and He heard them. In the pillar of the cloud He spake to them; for they kept His testimonies and His commandments which He gave them.' 243 And from the other words of David, also previously quoted, which you foolishly affirm refer to Solomon, [because] inscribed for Solomon, it can be proved that they do not refer to Solomon, and that this [Christ] existed before the sun, and that those of your nation who are saved shall be saved through Him. [The words] are these: `O God, give Thy judgment to the king, and Thy righteousness unto the king's son. He shall judge 244 Thy people with righteousness, and Thy poor with judgment. The mountains shall take up peace to the people, and the little hills righteousness. He shall judge the poor of the people, and shall save the children of the needy, and shall abase the slanderer: and He shall co-endure with the sun, and before the moon unto all generation'; and so on until, `His name endureth before the sun, and all tribes of the earth shall be blessed in Him. All nations shall call Him blessed. Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things: and blessed be His glorious name for ever and ever: and the whole earth shall be filled with His glory. Amen, Amen.' 245 And you remember from other words also spoken by David, and which I have mentioned before, how it is declared that He would come forth from the highest heavens, and again return to the same places, in order that you may recognise Him as God coming forth from above, and man living among men; and [how it is declared] that He will again appear, and they who pierced Him shall see Him, and shall bewail Him. [The words] are these: `The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge: They are not speeches or words whose voices are heard. Their sound has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world. In the sun has he set his habitation; and he, like a bridegroom going forth from his chamber, will rejoice as a giant to run his race: from the highest heaven is his going forth, and he returns to the highest heaven, and there is not one who shall be hidden from his heat.'" 246
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  hooberus

  Earnest said: It doesn't, of itself. But when you read of "the Lord Jesus with his powerful angels" (2 Thessalonians 1:7) and of "the armies that were in heaven following him on white horses" (Revelation 19:14) and also read of "Michael [the archangel] and his angels" waging war in heaven (Revelation 12:7) then it seems to speak of the same person.

  Earnest, I believe that there is a better parallel with 2 Thesasalonians 1:7 then that of Revelation 12:7, that is Isaiah 66:15-16 ( Note "LORD" = YHWH Hebrew)

  "For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many." Isaiah 66:15-16
  

  "And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day." 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

  Also compare Zechariah 14:5 and 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13.

  "And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." Zechariah 14:5
  

  "And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." 1 Thessalonians 3:12-13
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  Earnest

  hooberus,

  Earlier Justin Martyr was quoted as refering to Christ as an angel. I think that Justin referred to Christ as an angel possibly due to Christ being a messenger. However Martyr definitely thought of Christ as God and Lord. - hooberus (20-Oct-03 16:45 GMT)

  You say above, and quoted extensively from Justin's writings, that he definitely thought of Christ as God and Lord...and that is true. It is likewise true that most unitarians would speak of Christ as Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6) while still maintaining a distinction between him and Almighty God. Does Justin mean he is God in a relative sense, subordinate to Almighty God, or is he identifying him with Almighty God ?

  In one of the passages you quoted Justin wrote :

  Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things - above whom there is no other God - wishes to announce to them." - Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LVI.

  Justin considered it tantamount to blasphemy for the Jews to believe that Almighty God, Creator of the earth, carried out the menial tasks of communication when he had subordinates to do it. He says :

  "These and other such sayings are recorded by the lawgiver and by the prophets; and I suppose that I have stated sufficiently, that wherever God says, `God went up from Abraham', or, `The Lord spake to Moses', and `The Lord came down to behold the tower which the sons of men had built', or when `God shut Noah into the ark', you must not imagine that the unbegotten God Himself came down or went up from any place. For the ineffable Father and Lord of all neither has come to any place, nor walks, nor sleeps, nor rises up, but remains in His own place, wherever that is, quick to behold and quick to hear, having neither eyes nor ears, but being of indescribable might; and He sees all things, and knows all things, and none of us escapes His observation; and He is not moved or confined to a spot in the whole world, for He existed before the world was made. How, then, could He talk with any one, or be seen by any one, or appear on the smallest portion of the earth, when the people at Sinai were not able to look even on the glory of Him who was sent from Him; and Moses himself could not enter into the tabernacle which he had erected, when it was filled with the glory of God; and the priest could not endure to stand before the temple when Solomon conveyed the ark into the house in Jerusalem which he had built for it? Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will; whom also it pleased Him to be born man by the Virgin; who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush. Since, unless we thus comprehend the Scriptures, it must follow that the Father and Lord of all had not been in heaven when what Moses wrote took place: `And the Lord rained upon Sodom fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven'; and again, when it is thus said by David: `Lift up your gates, ye rulers; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting gates; and the King of glory shall enter'; and again, when He says: `The Lord says to my Lord, Sit at My right hand, till I make Thine enemies Thy footstool.' - Dialogue with Trypho, chapter CXXVII.

  So, Justin says that Christ is all these things "since He ministers to the Father's will, and since He was begotten of the Father by an act of will" (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXI).

  For Christ is King, and Priest, and God, and Lord, and angel, and man, and captain, and stone, and a Son born, and first made subject to suffering, then returning to heaven, and again coming with glory, and He is preached as having the everlasting kingdom: so I prove from all the Scriptures. - Dialogue with Trypho, chapter XXXIV.

  What is interesting about these references of Christ as an angel is that he speaks of it just as easily as he speaks of him being King or Priest or God or Lord. I cannot imagine Athanasius speaking in those terms without all sorts of qualifications, which indicates to me that the early Christians had no qualms with the idea. Consider, again, the passage where Justin refers to him as "Angel of mighty counsel" :

  And when Isaiah calls Him the Angel of mighty counsel, did he not foretell Him to be the Teacher of those truths which He did teach when He came [to earth]? For He alone taught openly those mighty counsels which the Father designed both for all those who have been and shall be well-pleasing to Him, and also for those who have rebelled against His will, whether men or angels... - Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LXXVI.

  No attempt to say that it's not really what Isaiah meant. And yet "angel" does mean messenger and as the Word of God he leads all the angels in heaven (Revelation 19:13,14).

  hooberus, you also said :

  Earnest, I believe that there is a better parallel with 2 Thessalonians 1:7 than that of Revelation 12:7, that is Isaiah 66:15-16 ( Note "LORD" = YHWH Hebrew)

  You may be right that Paul was using the imagery from the OT, but I wasn't suggesting that John was quoting from Thessalonians or even had it in mind. Just that the role Michael has in heaven, leading the angels in war, is identical to that of Jesus Christ.

  Earnest
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  hooberus

  Justin Martyr:
  

  Then I replied, "I shall attempt to persuade you, since you have understood the Scriptures, [of the truth] of what I say, that there is, and that there is said to be, another God and Lord subject to 180 the Maker of all things; who is also called an Angel, because He announces to men whatsoever the Maker of all things-above whom there is no other God-wishes to announce to them." And quoting once more the previous passage, I asked Trypho, "Do you think that God appeared to Abraham under the oak in Mature, as the Scripture asserts? "

  Justin Martyr:

  I replied again, "If I could not have proved to you from the Scriptures that one of those three is God, and is called Angel, 184 because, as I already said, He brings messages to those to whom God the Maker of all things wishes [messages to be brought], then in regard to Him who appeared to Abraham on earth in human form in like manner as the two angels who came with Him, and who was God even before the creation of the world, it were reasonable for you to entertain the same belief as is entertained by the whole of your nation."
  

  Earnest said: What is interesting about these references of Christ as an angel is that he speaks of it just as easily as he speaks of him being King or Priest or God or Lord. I cannot imagine Athanasius speaking in those terms without all sorts of qualifications, which indicates to me that the early Christians had no qualms with the idea.

  Justin clearly spoke of Christ as an angel in the sense of functioning as a messenger, not as in the sence of "spirit creature by nature" as the Watchtower and some Unitarians do. Note the word "because" following "angel".

  I believe that he thought of Christ as God by nature and as angel by function.

  Quoting fathers refering to Christ as an angel in the sence of messenger does not prove that these same fathers believed that Christ was an angel "created spirit creature" by nature.

  The issue is the nature of Christ: Is he YHWH God by nature?. The fact that he may have functioned as a messenger does not have to do with his nature. Justin clearly taught that Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament.
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  hooberus

  Justin referred to Christ as "God" by nature.

  Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will; whom also it pleased Him to be born man by the Virgin; who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush.

  and as Angel "because" of function.

  Therefore neither Abraham, nor Isaac, nor Jacob, nor any other man, saw the Father and ineffable Lord of all, and also of Christ, but [saw] Him who was according to His will His Son, being God, and the Angel because He ministered to His will; whom also it pleased Him to be born man by the Virgin; who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush.
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  hooberus

  Function and nature are two different issues. The issue is the nature of Christ. Is he YHWH God by nature?

  If you are going to do "angel quotes" from fathers please make sure that the quotes deal with nature and not simply with function. Then we will be dealing with the main issue (that of nature).
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  hooberus

  Though what the early fathers taught is informative, scripture should be the final word used when discussing the nature of Christ.

  "Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:" Psalm 104:1-4

  "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." Hebrews 1:7

  "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?" Hebrews 1:14

  What kind of being are these?
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  Kenneson

  Earnest,

  If the Septuagint, or any church father is inferring that Jesus is a created spirit creature than I say baloney. Is. 9:6 in the Septuagint : "For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose princely rule is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the angel of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes; peace and health to him." If the child and son is called an angel of great counsel, and this means Messenger as you and Hooberus say, I can accede to that.

  Now as to the passages in Rev. and Jude I fail to see it the way you do. Jesus learned obedience as a human. Are you saying he had to learn obedience as Michael before he was born a human or that Michel learned obedience from Jesus' obedience as a human? If the latter, how could that be since Michael contended with Satan over Moses' body before Jesus' birth? If the former, on what do you base this?
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  Earnest

  hooberus,

  If you [Earnest] are going to do "angel quotes" from fathers please make sure that the quotes deal with nature and not simply with function. Then we will be dealing with the main issue (that of nature). - hooberus, 22-Oct-03 18:42 GMT

  As we have previously discussed, this distinction between nature and function is not always clear. The biblical word "angel" has the meaning of messenger and is applied to spirit creatures because they are messengers of God. That is their function rather than their nature, and is a label by which we can identify them. As I explained in a previous post (12-Oct-03 15:56 GMT) : "When spirit messengers are indicated the words are translated 'angels,' but if the reference is to human creatures, the rendering is 'messengers'." So you could infer that when it indicates spirit messengers it refers to their nature as spirit creatures, and when it indicates human messengers it refers to their nature as humans, but you would be wrong as in both cases it simply refers to their function. This was explained at some length by Dean Porter in his posts of 14-Oct-03 which you may care to review.

  The issue is the nature of Christ: Is he YHWH God by nature?. The fact that he may have functioned as a messenger does not have to do with his nature. Justin clearly taught that Christ was the Jehovah of the Old Testament.

  Please refer to Dialogue with Trypho, chapter CXXVII in my previous post where Justin explains at length that when he refers to Christ as God "you must not imagine" that it refers to the unbegotten God Himself. In fact, in the passage that you quoted (where he is called an Angel) he says that he is "another God and Lord subject to the Maker of all things" (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter LVI). Justin clearly taught that Christ was not Jehovah of the Old Testament, although he did speak for him as the angel of the Lord.

  Though what the early fathers taught is informative, scripture should be the final word used when discussing the nature of Christ.

  Certainly, and in the context of our current discussion Hebrews 1 speaks of the Son and the angels as being "fellows", or "partners" but the Son was appointed to a superior position, as discussed in my post of 16-Oct-03 01:38 GMT. As Dean explained (14-Oct-03 22:57 GMT), the Son and the Angels are by 'nature' all sons of God but his Sonship is greater by virtue that he is the 'firstborn' with the priveleges that entails. Likewise, Justin speaks of the Son "and the host of other good angels who follow him and are made like him" (First Apology, chapter VI).

  "And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire." Hebrews 1:7

  What kind of being are these?

  Quite obviously they are spirits. What do you think about Justin's idea that Christ "who also was fire when He conversed with Moses from the bush" (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter CXXVII) ?

  Kenneson,

  If the child and son is called an angel of great counsel [Is. 9:6 in the Septuagint], and this means Messenger as you and Hooberus say, I can accede to that.

  Good.

  Are you saying he had to learn obedience as Michael before he was born a human or that Michel learned obedience from Jesus' obedience as a human? If the latter, how could that be since Michael contended with Satan over Moses' body before Jesus' birth? If the former, on what do you base this?

  The great majority of God's spirit creatures were obedient before Jesus' birth. I would suggest that the obedience came primarily from a reverence for God but they could have learnt the results of disobedience from the cosmic drama. As a human the Son could learn obedience from the things he suffered (Hebrews 5:8) but that doesn't suggest he was ignorant or disobedient prior to that time.

  Earnest
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  Kenneson

  Earnest,

  You state that "Certainly, and in the context of our current discussion of Hebrews 1 speaks of the Son and the angels as being "fellows", or "partners" but the Son was appointed to a superior position...the Son and the Angels are by "nature" sons of God but his Sonship is greater by virtue that he is the "firstborn" with the privileges that entails."

  No, angels are his companions because they were created through the Son and for him; they are his angels and he sustains them. Heb. 1:3 He is not one of them. He has a superior position because he is the only Son, not because he is a higher ranking angel. The name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. It is this name (Son) which shows his superiority to the angels. Isn't the author's insistence that the Son is superior to the angel mediators of the Mosaic law or old covenant (see Heb. 2:2, Acts 7:53 and Gal. 3:19)? Have not Christians received a more powerful word (vs. 3 and 4) than theirs through the Son? Christ's supremacy strengthens Christians against being carried away from their faith. Isn't the main purpose of angels to serve..those who are to inherit salvation? Heb. 1:14 Whereas, the Son's purpose was to be Savior (bring salvation). Finally, Jesus superiority to the angels emphasizes the superiority of the new covenant to the old because of the heavenly priesthood of Jesus. Hebrews 5. Keep in mind the Jewish conception that the ministering priests of the heavenly sanctuary were angels. However, Hebrews 5 is showing that it is Jesus, and not an angel, who is the priest who functions in the heavenly sanctuary.