Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

by hooberus 126 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

hooberus

Though the word aggelos has the primary meaning "messenger" and not necessarily nature, it can (depending on context) refer to nature.
Hebrews 2:6-7 contrasts the nature of men and angels. Here the word aggelos obviously refers to nature.
"But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels [greek aggelos]; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:" Hebrews Chapter 2:6-7
hooberus

Since aggelos can mean function or nature depending on context, the question with regards to the book of Hebrews is the following: Is aggelos refering primarily to "function" or "nature" in the first two chapters of Hebrews when it contrasts the Son with the aggelos?
I think that aggelos in the first two chapters of Hebrews clearly refers to the nature of the beings ie: "created spirit creatures" The Son nature is being contrasted with the nature of the aggelos (Here aggelos refers "to created spirit beings").
Earnest

hooberus,
Though all malak/aggelos were messengers, not all were "created spirit creatures" (as the term angel is commonly aludes to today.) However, malak/aggelos can at times refer to created spirit creatures (As it does in Hebrews Chapter 1 and 2).

Thank you for the clarifying that (with which I entirely agree). My reason for emphasizing the meaning of the biblical terms being "messenger" was to demonstrate that it is referring to function rather than nature, describing what they do rather than what they are.
Hebrews chapter 1 Shows the superiority of Christ to the angels /Greek aggelos (here aggelos obviously refers to created spirit creatures), by showing that He is the Lord of the Old Testament (ie: YHWH).

You are right that Hebrews is showing the superiority of Christ to the angels but he is not contrasting their natures, but the quality of Jesus' sonship. For example, consider Hebrews 1:7-9 where he is contrasting the Son and the angels, and he says of the Son in verse 9 :
"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

So here it speaks of the Son and the angels as being "fellows", or "partners". The word used is metochous and is used in a similar way in Luke 5:7 where it says of the fishermen whose nets were ripping apart with too many fish "And they beckoned unto their partners [metochois], which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them." Similarly, Psalm 45 (from which the writer of Hebrews is quoting), uses the word chaber which means "a fellow of like rank" (Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament; Brown, Driver, Briggs; 1929, p.288d, 2b). Hebrews is saying that the Son is superior to the angels because God has appointed him to that position, because he inherited a more excellent name than they (Hebrews 1:4), not because he occupies it by his nature.
hooberus : He is the one whom the angels worship.

Kenneson : Moreover, you [Earnest] never acknowledged why all the angels are commanded to worship the Son (an archangel according to you)? Heb. 1:6 How could an archangel receive worship? No matter how high a position they occupy, creatures are never to be worshipped. Worship only goes to God.
There are a number of scriptures, both in the OT (LXX) and NT, which speak of "worship" (proskuneo) being given to creatures (including angels) : Genesis 18:2; 19:1; 23:7,12; 27:29; 33:3,6,7; 42:6; 43:26,28; 49:8; Exodus 18:7; Numbers 22:31; Ruth 2:10; 1 Samuel 20:41; 25:23,41; 2 Samuel 1:2; 9:6,8; 14:4,22,33; 15:5; 16:4; 18:21,28; 24:20; Matthew 18:26; Revelation 3:9. The reason is that the basic meaning of the term is "bowing down" and can refer to worship, bowing or prostrating to someone, or even serving a meal (Judges 6:19). It all depends on the context which is why the NWT renders it obeisance in Hebrews 1:6.
Dean
,
Thank you for your kind words. I find these discussions really helpful because it requires the extra effort to divorce ourselves of notions we have grown up with and try to read scripture with the background and viewpoint of those for whom it was originally written.
Earnest
P.S. Multiple formatting in effort to get these yellow boxes to behave.
hooberus

In the Scriptures there are three types of beings by nature.
1. uncreated God
2. spirit creatures
3. humans
Hebrews does not say that Christ is superior to the "other" angels making him a "high-ranking angel." Hebrews shows that the son is superior to "the angels"; "all the angels" etc.
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6 (compare Psalm 97:7).
If all the angels worship Jesus, then he could not himself be an angel by nature.
hooberus

There are a number of scriptures, both in the OT (LXX) and NT, which speak of "worship" (proskuneo) being given to creatures (including angels) : Genesis 18:2; 19:1; 23:7,12; 27:29; 33:3,6,7; 42:6; 43:26,28; 49:8; Exodus 18:7; Numbers 22:31; Ruth 2:10; 1 Samuel 20:41; 25:23,41; 2 Samuel 1:2; 9:6,8; 14:4,22,33; 15:5; 16:4; 18:21,28; 24:20; Matthew 18:26; Revelation 3:9. The reason is that the basic meaning of the term is "bowing down" and can refer to worship, bowing or prostrating to someone, or even serving a meal (Judges 6:19). It all depends on the context which is why the NWT renders it obeisance in this verse.

The context of Hebrews 1:6 is the application of Psalm 97:7 to Jesus. Psalm 97:7 is all of the angels bowing down to Jehovah!
Even if proskuneo means primarily "bowing down" the deity of Jesus is still estabished even in the NWT since a passage about all the angels bowing down to Jehovah is directly applied to Jesus!:
Jehovah . . . bow down to him all YOU gods. Psalm 97:7 (footnoted to Hebrews 1:6)
"he says: "And let all God's angels to obeisance to him." Hebrews 1:6
hooberus

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:9
So here it speaks of the Son and the angels as being "fellows", or "partners". The word used is metochous and is used in a similar way in Luke 5:7 where it says of the fishermen whose nets were ripping apart with too many fish "And they beckoned unto their partners [metochois], which were in the other ship, that they should come and help them." Similarly, Psalm 45 (from which the writer of Hebrews is quoting), uses the word chaber which means "a fellow of like rank" (Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament; Brown, Driver, Briggs; 1929, p.288d, 2b). Hebrews is saying that the Son is superior to the angels because God has appointed him to that position, because he inherited a more excellent name than they (Hebrews 1:4), not because he occupies it by his nature.
The "fellows" are not "the Son and the angels" but Jesus and his human brethren (the Church):
"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:9
"Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee." Hebrews 2:12
Earnest

hooberus,
The context of Hebrews 1:6 is the application of Psalm 97:7 to Jesus. Psalm 97:7 is all of the angels bowing down to Jehovah!

It's not at all clear to me that the writer of Hebrews is quoting from Psalm 97 in this verse regardless of what the footnote in your Bible might say.
Hebrews 1:6 - And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Psalm 97:7,9 - Confounded be all they that serve graven images, that boast themselves of idols [elilim "worthless gods"] : worship him, all ye gods...For thou, LORD, art high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.
The psalm is not talking about the angels of God but about idols, worthless gods, above whom he is exalted. A possible source of his quotation is the LXX translation of Deuteronomy 32:43 which reads :
Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him...
A Hebrew variant of Deuteronomy with this verse was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls (4QDeutq) and published by P.W. Skehan ('A Fragment of the Song of Moses (Deut. 32) from Qumran', BASOR 136 (1954), 12-15). It reads (vss 37-43) :
(And) the LORD (will s)ay ("Where are their gods), the r(oc)k (in) which (they took refuge; who ate the) fa(t)s of (their) sacrifice(s, and drank the) wine (of their drink offerings? Let them rise up and) help you, (let them be your protection." See now) that I, ev(en I, am he, and there is no god with me)...Rejoice, O heavens, together with him; and bow down to him all you gods...
But again, this is not talking about angels but about the worthless gods who had let them down. And neither of these scriptures are in the context of the quotation, namely "when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world". My own view is that he is quoting from an OT variant not yet discovered but clearly known to the writer of Hebrews and his audience, and that the words "let all the angels of God worship him" apply to the firstbegotten just as the writer of Hebrews quotes them.
Even if proskuneo means primarily "bowing down" the deity of Jesus is still estabished even in the NWT since a passage about all the angels bowing down to Jehovah is directly applied to Jesus!
There are some OT passages which refer to Jehovah and are applied to Jesus in the NT although I don't think this is one of them. As the embodiment of God in the flesh (John 14:9) the entire OT became fulfilled in him (2 Corinthians 1:20) so it is not surprising such passages would be applied to him. But there are few today (and certainly none in the first century) who conclude it is identifying him with the person of Jehovah. There are other examples where the ontological identity between the passage and its application is not obvious. For example, Hosea 11:1 refers to Israel but Matthew 2:15 applies it to Jesus. Malachi 4:5 refers to Elijah but in Matthew 11:14 Jesus applied it to John the Baptist.
LittleToe,
Further, what kind of angel was Gabriel?
Hmmm. The Jews think he is a archangel (in fact I think they teach there are three archangels but cannot recall the name of the third) but the bible only applies the title to Michael. I suppose you could have more than one just as there are three archbishops in the Church of England (but the Archbishop of Canterbury is primus inter pares). However, I find the description of Michael and his angels (Revelation 12:7) very reminiscent of the armies in heaven following the "Word of God" (Revelation 19:13,14). No one else in the Bible is spoken of in these terms.
Earnest
Earnest

hooberus,
"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Hebrews 1:9
Earnest : So here it speaks of the Son and the angels as being "fellows", or "partners".
Hooberus : The "fellows" are not "the Son and the angels" but Jesus and his human brethren (the Church)
The entire passage of Hebrews 1:5-14 is talking about the Son and the angels and showing why the Son is superior. In this context verse 9 speaks of him being anointed above his fellows. The passage makes no sense if you take it out of context and apply the "fellows" to anyone else.
Earnest
LittleToe

Earnest:
I may have missed this, but in what way do you see Jesus as being the unique "Son of God", if he is Michael, and hence only one of several archangels?
Daniel has Michael as only "one of the foremost princes".
I understand that Raphael was named (Book of Tobias), as well as Uriel, Raaguel, Sariel and Jeremiel (Book of Enoch), in extra-canonical books.
(Making seven in all, which some believe to be the Seven spitits of Revelation)
hooberus

The NWT crossreferences Psalm 97:7 to Hebrews 1:6. I believe that the LXX reading of Psalm 97:7 is something like "Worship Him, all ye His angels." Here the LXX uses "angels"
However, As you pointed out Hebrews may be quoting from the LXX translation of Deuteronomy 32:43 (The NWT references Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX in a footnote by Hebrews 1:6). Deuteronomy 32:43 LXX reads:
Be glad, O heavens, together with him, and let all the angels of God worship him. Be glad, you nations, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him...
Here the LXX is clearly refering to "angels" and not idols. In fact the author of Hebrews clearly thought of those bowing down as "angels" not idols.
"And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him." Hebrews 1:6 KJV
And neither of these scriptures are in the context of the quotation, namely "when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world". My own view is that he is quoting from an OT variant not yet discovered but clearly known to the writer of Hebrews and his audience, and that the words "let all the angels of God worship him" apply to the firstbegotten just as the writer of Hebrews quotes them.
The quote that the Father applies to the Son is: And let all the angels of God worship him. The phrase he saith before the quote And let all the angels of God worship him shows that the Father is starting His quote at the words And let . . . Hense I see no need to look for a hidden LXX variant containing the words when he bringeth in the firstbegotten in the world, along with the other words. The phrase when he bringeth his firstbegotten into the world is not being directly quoted by the Father only the words that follow the term he saith
The text reads: And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
The text does not read ; And again, he saith, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Troublesome Trinity Verses Part 10

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