Yes, I am, but no I am not.... (page 2)

Badger

Good post...

I'm not thinking of replacing one cult with another...

hillary_step

Dorkycrass,

HS - you're right this would be a boring forum if everyone is in agreement. That's why I'm here. To play the devil's advocate. I have every right to post here, I'm a citizen of the world wide web. And the tower on the top left says, ...everyone welcome!

And a very warm welcome to you. Dansk,

Isn't that ALWAYS the way! Some elders from outside congregations seemed to be the type one wanted in one's own congregation - until one spoke to members of their congregations! It seems, at least in my experience, that outside elders appeared to be such wonderful caring people - until one got to REALLY know them.

Sorry governor, my experiences are that many JW elders are sincerely loving and caring individuals and that many are not. It easy to dismiss thousands of people from different nationalities, cultures, social statements and personalities with statements such as yours, but I have found them to be innacurate and prejudicial.

I feel I have moved on tremendously since I first came here and I'm no longer the fire-spitting hard-hitting person I might have been -- but that still doesn't mean I don't want the Society to be razed to the ground and utterly destroyed, because I do! Why? Because while it exists people are getting hurt, e.g. Vicki Boer.

I have never said that I do not want to see the WTS out of business. I have always said, that this will not happen until social evolution makes it happen. It will evolve and mainstream to survive, but survive it will. Eventually the natural processes of social evolution will undermine its hold on its adherents and many will leave, many however will stay. This is not defending the WTS this is called pragmatism ( long word just for Dave! ). A couple of years ago Ginny Tosken, a poster on this Board, made a comment that lives with me daily and impacts the very point we are discussing. She said that when she finds herself particularly angry about some excess the WTS is guilty of, she asks herself, "would I feel as angry if I heard that it was another religion and not the WTS that had perperated this outrage?". It is this kind or reasoning that will help us see how to lead the monster, rather than being led by it. Dave, lol....I have to ration my use of 'long-words' as I start to run out after a few posts and then I start sounding like a chimpanzee on Ecstasy. I tend to save them for befuddling certain posters and confusing the tax-man. Keep breathing - HS

hillary_step

Yxi1,

Nice post, but I must say that I didnt agree with a lot of it. I'm sure most people here can point to some good things about the Org. But I wouldnt go as far to say that I benefited because of them.

I tend to feel that we are all benifited from 'good' things. Perhaps you might give us an example of what you mean.

I met my wife when we were both Dubs, but I wouldnt say it was because of the WTS. Who's to say that I wouldnt have met her if we were never Dubs .... she live only a mile from my house. I too mixed with people who ended up with drug problems and/or in jail, but it never happened to me. I dont thank the WTS for this. I thank my mother and sisters and my own selfcontrol

My wife lived an Ocean away. Does that change your argument? Have you seen drug addicts become JW's and kick the habit? I have. I have studied in gaols with hardened crminals who became JW's on leaving prison became honest, hard-working family men. To pre-empt a normal XJW reaction, I know that other religions also claim these social successes but we are here talikng about the JW's.

I can honestly say that in my old congregation there was not one single elder who I would consider to be a decent human being (and I include my father-in-law in that group). Not that they did anything against me personally (some did), but the way they tried to control the congregation and their own families, proved to me that these were not men who should be in control of peoples lives. However, I have met elders from other congregations who have been warm, kind and caring

Will you acknowledge that others may have a completely different experience. As I asked on a previous thread, are we saying that elders do not show geniune love and care 1) For their wives? 2) For their families 3) For their friends? 4) For the workmates 5 ) For every JW within their congregations. A negative answer to any of these questions disproves the notions that there are many elders who are not loving and caring people .

You say that chanting in unison and wearing the correct tribal colthes is no subsitute for reasoned argument, and I agree. However, feeling like you belong is a normal part of our makeup. Seeing as we've all spent most of our lives being seperate from the world, and the rest of it not quite fitting in, this forum has been a great way of "wearing tribal clothes".

My point is that wearing a uniform of any sort can and does lead to prejudicial viewpoints, especially when discussing matters outside the uniform of your own particular peer group. Prejudice is never a safe option.

Also I dont think there is much room for reasoned aurguments when you are refering to the WTS, but thats my own opinion.

Of course I disagree. There is room for reasoned arguments involving any issue from nuclear bombs, to mice traps. Why should the WTS, its doctrines and its modus operandi be an exception?

Best regards - HS

Dansk

Hillary,

It easy to dismiss thousands of people from different nationalities, cultures, social statements and personalities with statements such as yours, but I have found them to be innacurate and prejudicial.

Why do you make a statement that is bigger than my post intended? I wasn't talking about nationalities, social statements, cultures and personalities, etc., I was talking about elders in MY EXPERIENCE. It is YOUR experience that there are some good, caring ones. I haven't found ANY.

My wife, friends (some on this board) and I sat around one evening and tried to come up with one elder in our congregation that we felt we could honestly confide in and that something would be done to help us with any difficulties. We couldn't think of a single one amongst us!

It is my belief that if those same elders were to get out of Watchtower a good few really would become truly unconditionally loving and caring.

Dansk

expatbrit

Why should the WTS, its doctrines and its modud operandi

A Latin pun (Punus Latinum?). I'm impressed!

Have you ever seen the movie The Big Kahuna, Hillary?

Expatbrit

Dansk

Hey Hillary,

Well have to Modus vivendi

Dansk

How about that, exP!

hillary_step

Expat,

A Latin pun (Punus Latinum?). I'm impressed!

Nothing but a typing error I assure you. Though Latinized from infancy, I was never that punny.

Have you ever seen the movie The Big Kahuna, Hillary?

No. Torment me with it..lol

HS

Simon

I don't agree that the only good elder is an ex-elder. Some elders are good and are honestly trying to help people and it's unfair to lump them all in the same.

Get real ! We're not going to destroy a big organisation like the WTS so cheering each other on to "go over the top" and run into the machine gun fire is silly and helps no one. The best we can hope for is to change the organisation and make it gentler on people and it will need good people inside it to do that.

It seems some are very black and white in their views and from being all for the WTS they are now 100% opposed to everything.

I don't think this really helps.

We need to be organised and professional in how we deal with things.

expatbrit

Have you ever seen the movie The Big Kahuna, Hillary?

No. Torment me with it..lol

Tormenting isn't my forte', I'm afraid. However, I recommend watching the movie. It explores the concept that a person may sincerely believe that they have genuine concern for others, but underlying motives can offer a different perspective.

Dansk, rectum intelligentii!

Expatbrit

Sam Beli

HS, thank you for the explanation of your change in posting style. Though I was not one of those who wrote to you I did wonder what was up?

My only concern with your posts in recent days is that you strongly hang onto your opinions, displaying great confidence even when others have had different WTS experiences. Nevertheless, you bring well reasoned comments that usually are a breath of fresh air.

I will admit that some WTS association was positive. I learned public speaking at an early age and it has served me well ever since. I too have met some wonderful people among JWs. However, now that I am "inactive" I am viewed as "bad association" and none of my former friends make contact with me. It is difficult therefore to avoid resentment toward the WTS for its herd like training of the R&F JW.

Unlike you, my JW marriage was a disaster and probably the single worst decision of my life. I bought into the doctrine of "marry only in the Lord" and assumed that that meant only marry a JW (I was a typical non-thinking JW myself). Many years later I was blessed with a wonderful wife who respected "the Lord," but was not interested in the JWs. Finally, I got through my thick skull what "marry only in the lord" really meant.

With respect to elders, my experiences have also been different than yours. True, a few elders genuinely meant well, but so many that I encountered over the years were at the very least incompetent; others where the bullies that were discussed on an earlier thread; some where liars; some where envious; some had huge egos; and a few seemed ruthless for reasons that I never fully understood. I even discovered criminal behavior that one MS was involved in. These experiences of mine are just as real to me as your experiences have been to you. I haven?t been sure that you respected the differing experiences of others, and that is the only, and I do mean only area where I have not seen eye to eye with you.

I respect your opinions and your thoughtful comments on this board. I agree that we should be freer here to express opinions without being bombarded by our own breed of bullies. I hope that these comments to you are received in the spirit of respect and friendship in which they are offered. Please keep posting; yours are among the first that I want to read when I log on.

Warm regards,

Sam B.

Yes, I am, but no I am not....

Share this