Yes, I am, but no I am not....

by hillary_step 50 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Englishman

  Luculentus nugae!

  Englishman.
• 

  undercover

  ....I have noticed that a regular diet of WTS bashing can make one sickly and withered and unable to see both sides of an issue.

  Excellent point. I agree. The more I dwell on the issues the more ill I become. Not ill as in physically sick but mentally upset. When I avoid all things WT I feel better. As I break away from the WTS, I feel I will also have to put it all behind me and not dwell on it. In turn my time spent here will be less than before.

  You see, chanting in unison and wearing the correct tribal clothes, is no substitute for reasoned argument that sees both sides of any issue. For an argument developed on a sound basis leads to growth, one that is not, leads to further ignorance.

  In the interests of truth it behooves someone to break the mold and actually present other sides of the WTS issue. For example, I recently and deliberately challenged, at great length I might add, the absurd assumption that all or most elders were ?unloving and uncaring?. A generalization that could only be sustained by prejudice and not by fact and universal experience.

  I have to agree with this also. Using this same example of elders, I too know of good, caring elders as well as sorry, dumb, uncaring elders. But because I know some sorry elders doesn't make them all bad. So sometimes when I see posts that lump all JWs or all elders or all whatever into a single unflattering mold, I feel that fairness isn't being displayed. That's not to say that even the good elders aren't guilty of mis-leading people. But they are mislead as we were mislead. Some care, some think they're doing the right thing. Same with the regular joe dubya. They, as a group, aren't bad people. They aren't what they think they are, but who is? By being fair and defending against obvious prejudiced statements is not defending the religion or it's self proclaimed brothers of Christ, but it helps all of us keep a balanced view of the underlings who have been deceived and mislead.
• 

  anglise

  Hi HS

  yes there are good kind elders. In my experience they tend to burn out. Some can keep going but the dont seem to wield any powers of persuasion over the greater number of "society" men.

  So although they exist they tend to live in the shadows, being consulted and loved by the rank and file but largely ignored by the rest of the body.

  It is sad to try and imagine the mental gymnastics that such individuals put themselves through so as to remain faithful to some of the dictates that come from the GB.

  Are we the rats who have left the sinking ship of Brooklyn and should they be commended for staying and trying to improve things through the power of love.

  I dont know.

  To keep our sanity we left.

  Anglise
• 

  hillary_step

  Sam,

  Many thanks for your post which I will think about, and as ever I too must state that I have a great respect for your posts. You do not say much, but when you do it is very much worth reading and is always reasoned

  As to the infamous 'elder' issue. We have a Board with thousands of subscribers, most of whom have negative experiences with elders and it is not very surprising that very few positive, or what I would term realistic comments, have been bought to bear on the subject. In fact the reason many are here is because they have in one way or another been driven here by elders! I plainly accept that many elders are not very nice people, however, I also acknowledge that many are kind, caring decent people trapped within a system that once held us all imprisoned. If you remember, I noted that this scenario tends to reflect not what elders are, but what the human condition is, as you will find this experience among any group of people anywhere. No person is completely good, or completely bad and every man / women is capable of everything. No elder is completely bad, or completely good.

  As to the confidence I express in making my points known, I do not apologize for this. I believe what I believe and cannot see the point in presenting a point of view especially a controversial one without defending it vigorously if need be, if that point of view comes under attack. As one of my teachers used to say, "There is no point having an opinion unless it is strong - rather live without them"

  Best regards Sam - HS
• 

  xjw_b12

  What a dummy I am. I totally missed the point of HS's post.

  I thought it was a subtle attempt to poke fun at English Soccer teams tribes !
• 

  Valis

  So no, I am not ill as one mailer suggested

  *LOL* That sir has yet to be determined! Hey man, the voice of reason is sometimes also the one of brutal honesty. S'OK.....Funny thing h_s...during our recent "flame war" I got PMs from probably the same ones that think you are off your rocker...*LOL* ...ahem...not very nice...*LOL*

  Sincerely,

  District Overbeer
• 

  Flowerpetal

  You say that chanting in unison and wearing the correct tribal colthes is no subsitute for reasoned argument, and I agree. However, feeling like you belong is a normal part of our makeup. Seeing as we've all spent most of our lives being seperate from the world, and the rest of it not quite fitting in, this forum has been a great way of "wearing tribal clothes".

  HS:

  My point is that wearing a uniform of any sort can and does lead to prejudicial viewpoints, especially when discussing matters outside the uniform of your own particular peer group. Prejudice is never a safe option.

  What one must be careful of is "herd" thinking whether in the WTS or out of it. As a person just coming back to this board, objectively speaking, I see some herd thinking here in certain categories.

  Simon, I agree with you.
• 

  AlanF

  As usual I enjoyed your perspective, HS. Good comments from some other posters, too.

  I think that everyone needs to keep some important things in mind. Most people here have had mild to very bad experiences with the Watchtower; that's why they're here and not at the Kingdom Hall. Most people are not particularly objective; that's both a plus and a minus depending on what context you're talking about. On this board we need both subjective and objective viewpoints. The two are hardly mutually exclusive, although most people have to work hard at getting a workable balance between them. Some people are naturally going to lean towards one or the other, since everyone's personality is different. I think that it's extremely important for those with leanings one way or the other to give people with the other leaning plenty of leeway to freely express themselves, within limitations.

  People who have been hurt tend naturally to exaggerate. A rape victim will be hard put to objectively view her attacker, and shouldn't be expected to. On the other hand, no one who views himself as objective should ever minimize the hurt just to retain his objective view.

  The context of the forum in which issues are discussed also makes a big difference in which way a person should lean in a specific discussion. In, say, a forum where the legal aspects of shunning are discussed, extreme objectivity should rule, whereas in a forum like JWD, which is largely oriented towards the personal and social aspects of JW-related matters, much more subjectivity is appropriate.

  Nevertheless, in no forum should out and out untruths be told, or if told, be left unchallenged. With respect to JWs, we know very well that JWs are always looking for the worst possible light in which to view their critics, and so critics ought to be scrupulous in getting their facts straight. Otherwise a JW who might otherwise be open to considering a good criticism might continue dismissing all criticisms simply because one critic exaggerated an issue to the point of distortion. This helps JWs to continue in their braindead mindset, so that when an "apostate" forgets to cross a "t" properly they can feel justified in dismissing his entire argument.

  Folks like Hillary Step bring a much-needed balance and objectivity to this board, since the majority of posters, like the majority of human beings in general, are more inclined to the subjective than the objective. Some posters may not like that, but that's the way humans are. Knowing Hillary personally, I can say that he's a true fighter against the Watchtower, in ways that most people will never know. He's also a very fair man, and wants the truth to be told, and I believe acts in the ways I've implied above are proper for different forums. So when HS appears to defend the Watchtower, he's only defending truth -- even if that truth puts the Watchtower in a good light. He's done so from his very first appearance on this board.

  People need to keep in mind that hardly anything in this world is black or white. While the Watchtower is certainly a nasty organization that needs to be put out of existence, it still has some good points, and so do individual Jehovah's Witnesses. If they didn't, none of us would have gotten out of the nasty cult.

  As for elders, my experience has been mixed. I've known some who were black of heart and ought to be put away for the rest of their lives; I've known some who were saints. It's impossible to generalize and say that all elders are wicked, cuz it ain't so. There are plenty of elders who actually work within the JW system to bring about changes for the better. Whether this is misguided, I leave the reader to judge. I think that in some cases it's a good thing, and in others not.

  For example, an elder who posted as "Friend" had, in his old age, realized that a lot of what he had believed and taught was nonsense and was hurting people. He continued in his position, because in it he was far better able to further his goals against the Watchtower than if he simply quit. I know or know of other elders and rank & file JWs who did, or are doing, the same. Each person who comes to such a realization needs to work within his or her own circumstances, which include whether they can support themselves outside of the JW system, whether they can tolerate the extreme loss of family and friends that may result, and so forth. I think it's unfair for others who don't know all the details to judge such people.

  AlanF
• 

  hillary_step

  Expatperson,
  

  It explores the concept that a person may sincerely believe that they have genuine concern for others, but underlying motives can offer a different perspective.

  Of course that is true. It is something however that we all need to look to ourselves over, not singling out a particular unpopular group for. It is as I noted, part of the human condition and we can all have elements of our own persona that care deeply for some and not others. Elders are of course blighted with the human condition like the rest of us.

  For example ( raises yet another controversy ), yesterday the delightful Tinkerbell sadly announced that a relationship that she was involved with had collapsed leaving her very sad. Now Tinkerbell, judging from her photograph is a pretty girl and this sad news produced four pages of posts within an hour, full of commiseration?s and hugs from many eager young braves. Do you believe that this reaction would have been forthcoming for a homely looking girl, or from one whose avatar did not display a photograph? Certainly not with such vigor. Are all those who wished Tinkerbell good things genuinely concerned, or perhaps is there some ulterior motive? It is much easier for some to show care and concern for pretty rather than ugly. This is just an example of the human condition playing the field. No doubt, many male partakers of that thread will attack me for saying what I have, but I have been around on the planet a long. long time!

  Some may describe an elder as unloving based on their experience, another person may describe that very same person as loving and caring based on theirs. One person two views, a situation that shows that these generalizations are fraught with difficulty and open to scrutiny.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  StinkyPantz

  HS-

  I read almost everything you write and it didn't seem too different if you ask me. You always seem to have an answer for everything.

  Each tribe has its own colors, songs, and 'in crowd' membership.

  So true, I've even seen your team colors demonstrated. No one's perfect, especially not me. Besides, I am sure that my perception was wrong. I usually am, why do I even comment?

  For the person who thinks that I am still a ?JW elder in my mind?, think what you like.

  A demonstration of my ignorance: I thought you really were still a JW elder. LOL. .

  Do you believe that this reaction would have been forthcoming for a homely looking girl, or from one whose avatar did not display a photograph? Certainly not with such vigor. Are all those who wished Tinkerbell good things genuinely concerned, or perhaps is there some ulterior motive? It is much easier for some to show care and concern for pretty rather than ugly.

  It's SO true. . I wonder why this didn't work for me. Maybe I should've came here as a blonde. .

  Dansk-

  The only good elder - in my experience - is an ex-elder, and preferably posting here.