Yes, I am, but no I am not....

by hillary_step 50 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Why TJ,

  Thank you Sir for your post, which does indeed encapsulate the points that I have been trying to make and very clearly at that.

  Interesting post, Brother Step. I know that I am mentally challenged (as you have so often pointed out) but let?s see how far off I am in distilling the kernels of truth from your initial post:

  If I have suggested that you are 'mentally challenged' I apologize - frankly, though I might have thought this on occasion, I cannot remembering uttering that statement in public, though of course I can be a very naughty boy indeed sometimes. I have accused you of lacking critical thinking skills and have also greatly praised your creative writing skills. The emodiment of these two diciplines would without doubt make a very powerful author of you TJ.

  Despite our differences, I have always respected your independence.

  Kindest regards sincerely meant - HS

  PS - I think you are much cuter than Alan, but don't tell him. I would not want to risk another scene inside the hairdresser's again!
• 

  ozziepost

  G'day H.S.

  Exactly!

  Cheers, Ozzie
• 

  jst2laws

  HS

  What happens is that a sort of back-slapping, tribal mentality develops such as is noted in English Soccer tribes.

  Excellent point. When we were WT fundamentalist we the "tribe" of Jehovah. We were right and the whole world was wrong, and deserving of death for not seeing things our way.

  The reason for this is that no one person dares challenge the status quo, for fear of brutalization.

  But not fearless HS

  For example, I recently and deliberately challenged, at great length I might add, the absurd assumption that all or most elders were ?unloving and uncaring?. A generalization that could only be sustained by prejudice and not by fact and universal experience.

  I deliberately avoided that thread because I am so tired of battling with that issue. I know who and what I was as an elder and know even the three men who disfellowshipped me did it believing they were doing "Jehovah's will". All three were GOOD MEN allowing misquided Righteousness override their own good sense.

  Back to your point, perhaps as a group we are not as open minded as we would like to think we are. Your post is a commendable illumination of our blemished faces in the bathroom mirror.

  But we can remove the blemishes if we look closely in the mirror.

  Steve
• 

  SixofNine

  baah! Elders drool & apostates rule! Booyah!
• 

  Winston Smith :>D

  HS,

  I've been on the board only for a short while, so this last thread appeared as pertinent and well thought out as any other posts you have made, any of which I have read, were enjoyed.

  Blanket statements have the difficulty of encompassing all of the exceptions.

  I have no doubt that there are many rotten people and elders in the organization. I've met a few myself.

  But to say that all JW's are bad people, well; that is just a flat out lie.

  IMHO, anyone that would make such a blanket statement is either ignorant or has a [thinly veiled] hidden agenda to make their biases an accepted fact in everyone else's lives.

  I've had many elders & R&F make sacrifices that could never have been counted on a time card, or that would have been as visible as an underlined WatchTower in a Sunday meeting, or that would be as self-promoting as having their name announced as a Reg Pio.

  They just did it because they were good people. I would wager that the majority of the above noted people that have touched me would have never even thought that their actions would somehow aid in them escaping the 'Big A'.

  Of the positive experiences that I have had in the Troof, none of then will ever erase the negative things that I have been subjected to because of the Borg. Nor can it ever take away the pain the I have been through, or of others who have suffered much worse, such as molestation, because of the WTS.

  And the point that Alan makes should be given some thought.

  If we make blanket statements about the WTS and the people within, JW's looking to escape and then finding this site will be more apt to open their minds if they see the truth being plainly spoken. People looking to escape will have their bullshit alarms go off if they read all encompassing statements of hate here as the WTS also practices. It did for me when visiting other sites. When I came here and saw the truth being plainly discussed, it struck a chord in my heart.

  I find myself though guilty of this very action that i just condemned. It's hard at times not to take part in such tribal mentality infused bashing. i even can be the instigator at times.

  So thank you HS for the balanced viewpoint. I didn't note a change in your posting manner because they generally seem balanced, forthright and on the mark to me.

  Winston.
• 

  setfreefinally

  Well said Hillary!
• 

  yxl1

  I tend to feel that we are all benifited from 'good' things. Perhaps you might give us an example of what you mean.

  You've got me there. I honestly cannot think of one single "good thing" during my 15 years as a witness. ~I guess it all depends on ones definition of "good things" Or maybe my assiociation with apostates have erradicated such memories ;)

  My wife lived an Ocean away. Does that change your argument? Have you seen drug addicts become JW's and kick the habit? I have. I have studied in gaols with hardened crminals who became JW's on leaving prison became honest, hard-working family men.

  I have no doubt some people have met partners through their association with Jehovahswitnesses. I just dont credit the WTS for me meeting my wife. If anything, it was the WTS and their rules that made in almost imposible for us to be together. If I am to credit the WTS for anything, it would be that their interference in our relationship actually made us more determined to be together.

  I have not seen a drug addict kick the habit and become a nice, family orientated family man. But I have seen children, kicked out from the organization and torn from their familes for no more than trying the odd cigarette. No help, no questions...just OUT! I just dont understand why kindness and tolerance is shown to one and not the other.

  Will you acknowledge that others may have a completely different experience. As I asked on a previous thread, are we saying that elders do not show geniune love and care

  I am aware that some people have a different experience of elders than to what I have. By just using the law of averages, some good elders must exist, but I can only comment on what I have seen, heard and experienced. I'm sure if you grew up in my congregation and experienced the racism, preferential treatment of elders children and wealthy members, slander, gossip, physical abuse, marking and constant reproving for the most petty and non-scriptual things, you would not question my observation of elders.

  Prejudice is never a safe option

  Agreed, but confusing when defending the most prejudiced group of people I know. At least the father of a friend of mine who was a member of a well know racist group, had the balls to tell me to my face that he didnt like me because of my colour/religion. I'd rather that, than the years of sneering, pointing, marking, back stabbing and avoidance veiled in the name of religion.

  There is room for reasoned arguments involving any issue from nuclear bombs, to mice traps. Why should the WTS, its doctrines and its modus operandi be an exception?

  I've tried reasoning with Witnesses and IMHO, it just doesnt work. I've talked for hours with them on various issues, most recently the Vicki bower case, only to be told that the devil is out to get them, persecute them, destroy them. Even showing them printouts of the court manuscripts and newspaper articles gets the response that its "all lies", "Satans attack on the society" etc. How can you have a reasoned argument when your opposition refuses to even acknowledge the facts? Regards yxl1
• 

  Sam Beli

  What a wonderful thread! Great comments from all!

  Do you have any idea how difficult is is to find a wealthy nymphomaniac who owns a liquor store to pledge undying love to?

  HS, you and I are even more alike than I thought Love to meet you sometime - I suspect that face to face we'd find much in common.

  Warm regards,

  Sam

  PS Congratulations on finding a wonderful wife among the JWs, though as you note she was oceans away! Eventually I got there too; as usual I am slower than most.
• 

  hillary_step

  Yxi1,

  Thank you for your note.

  I have no doubt some people have met partners through their association with Jehovahswitnesses. I just dont credit the WTS for me meeting my wife. If anything, it was the WTS and their rules that made in almost imposible for us to be together. If I am to credit the WTS for anything, it would be that their interference in our relationship actually made us more determined to be together.

  Perhaps understatement of the year! Many XJW's have married after their exit from the JW's. They can thank the WTS for bringing them together, albeit via an uncoventional modus. I think you must admit that meeting your JW wife within one mile of your Kingdon Hall while you were both JW's and then pre-supposing that you might have met, might have fallen in love, and might have married even if you were not JW's is an experience and attitude that few would attest to. Certainly not one that makes avalid argument in the context of this thread.

  I have not seen a drug addict kick the habit and become a nice, family orientated family man. But I have seen children, kicked out from the organization and torn from their familes for no more than trying the odd cigarette. No help, no questions...just OUT! I just dont understand why kindness and tolerance is shown to one and not the other.

  First, please remember than my examples were of drug addicts who were helped to 'kick' the habit, and persons imprisoned who became JW's and also became decent, hardworking family men. This is not an unusual experience and I conjecture that most congregations have at least one ex-alchoholic and one ex-drug addict within its walls. If this assumption is correct, and I believe it is not exaggerated, then you surely would need to look more closely at your arguments. Just saying that you have never 'seen' a drug addict turn their lives around after their attachment to the WTS might mean that you are just ill-informed. Your argument regarding children ( presumably baptized? ) who were 'kicked out' ( presumably disfellowshipped ) for smoking is again a red herring. Their is no similitude between a non JW who becomes a JW and helped off drugs and or out of prison and a person who has been a JW, knows the 'rules' required to stay a JW, and contravenes those rules. I am not taking a moral stand on either side here, I am just showing that your argument is fatally flawed.

  I am aware that some people have a different experience of elders than to what I have. By just using the law of averages, some good elders must exist, but I can only comment on what I have seen, heard and experienced.

  This is of course part of my argument, also coupled with the fact that no person is completely good or completely bad. Some elders may be unloving and ucaring in some situations, and very loving and caring in others. In this they are proving themselves to be merely human, like yourself.

  I'm sure if you grew up in my congregation and experienced the racism, preferential treatment of elders children and wealthy members, slander, gossip, physical abuse, marking and constant reproving for the most petty and non-scriptual things, you would not question my observation of elders.

  I have been in a number of such congregations, and I still question your observations regarding the elders because they are emotively assessed and subsequently suffer a bias, as you yourself admit. In quantifying an answer to the question as to whether anything good came out of the WTS, or if all or most elders are unloving and uncaring, we should all be careful to make decisions not based on biased points of view.

  Agreed, but confusing when defending the most prejudiced group of people I know.

  They are not the most prejudice group I know. In fact I have met some XJW's who are far more prejudice than JW's. I believe that while the JW's are not perfect in this regard, they do not have an international reputation for extreme racial hatred.

  I've tried reasoning with Witnesses and IMHO, it just doesnt work. I've talked for hours with them on various issues, most recently the Vicki bower case, only to be told that the devil is out to get them, persecute them, destroy them. Even showing them printouts of the court manuscripts and newspaper articles gets the response that its "all lies", "Satans attack on the society" etc. How can you have a reasoned argument when your opposition refuses to even acknowledge the facts?

  Agreed, it is not easy as you must well remember from your years as a JW how controlled their thinking and inclinations are. Some of us forget very quickly just what we once were and actually seem to think that we were not quite like the others. We all were, and the sooner we face up to the fact the more quickly we can heal. I have spoken with numerous die-hard JW's and eventually managed to penetrate the glaze with some. It is not impossible. I have found it requires patience, a cool head, an insistence on logic and an ability to see both sides of the coin. It took my own wife many many years to see the reality of the WTS.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  hillary_step

  Sam,

  PS Congratulations on finding a wonderful wife among the JWs, though as you note she was oceans away! Eventually I got there too; as usual I am slower than most.

  And I am sure that she appreciates that 'quality' is worth waiting for!

  Best regards - HS