by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends
The WTS says that anyone is free to decide to join and leave the religion. They argue this routinely, especially when questioned by human rights organizations and governments. But when the price of leaving is so high, I must wonder if the decision is one that can be freely made.
Rocketman, I don't think you could have said it better!
Every decision we make has benefits and prices. Just because the price is high does not change that essential fact. The benefits are high too, are they not? When people make heroic decisions, we often refer to them as heroic because the price was high. Make no mistake, I acknowledge that leaving the WTS takes bravery - and very possibly merits the use of the word "heroic".
Free in this case doesn't mean "without prices" - it is used in accordance with the very first definition in the dictionary, which is "Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty".
Very true. What comes to mind for me personally is the Vicki Boer situation. There, the judge ruled that her free willw as essentially taken away from her because, had she gone against the elder who wanted her to confront her abusive dad, she would have faced very serious consequences. Vicki did not feel that she really had a choice, and the judge agreed.
I think that it some situations, an atmosphere exists in which people feel coerced, pressured, and therefore don't feel that they can really make a free choice. While perhaps technically they can still decide to do something or not do it, they are put in an extreme situation, and to me that's what happened to Vicki. She was under such duress that she did not feel free to make a choice that she wanted to make.
That's why I think that a degree blame must be accorded the Watchtower organization, depending on what situation one may be in. They create an atmosphere that makes choosing to leave so extremely difficult that many people do not free to just leave. Indeed, if that were not the case, why would so many folks here avoid disassociating themselves and getting it over with? We don't, because even though the Society says that people are free to leave, we don't really feel that way. I know I don't.
I do realize of course that life is not always fair, and that by saying that there should be an implied fairness in decision-making, that doesn't always happen. There are prices to pay, consequences to be borne. But as illustrated by the Boer case, I think sometimes people just feel trapped, and I've got to blame the Society for creating such an atmosphere.
Now I exhort you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them. For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own bellies; and by smooth talk and complimentary speech they seduce the hearts of guileless ones."
Paul knew what he was talking about... tricky bastards...
CZAR
Thanks, rocketman. I concur that that case is an extreme situation, and I want to comment on it very narrowly and specifically, or I will have somebody on here telling me I am in favor of child molesters or some such twaddle. Also, I don't know what went on in her mind, and if I inadvertertently mis-state anything about her, I hope to be corrected. I have not followed the Boer case closely, and I assume that we are dealing with someone's choices as a responsible adult. Children are by definition not responsible for themselves and what I have written should not be taken as applying to kids.
You are saying that she was "technically" free to make that choice, but she didn't feel free to do so. Ignoring the legal situation for a moment, which I am not qualified to comment on, I suggest that she felt that way because of prior choices she had made about her beliefs, and if she feels differently now, it's because of later choices she made about her beliefs. Regardless of the legal finding, I suggest that as part of her journey of recovery from these events, she has chosen to feel differently, and has taken action accordingly. This is why I referred to heroism earlier. It's extreme, absolutely. It's hard. Many of us know this firsthand, and I mean to lessen it not at all when I say that we had the ability to make a different choice the whole time, and didn't realize it right away.
Your use of the word blame over and over, Rocketman, I think really ties in to what I have said. I actually totally understand blaming the WTS. But when you are focused on how to be as effective as possible and to be as responsible as possible in your own life, does blaming others or yourself really help? No, it doesn't. Blame is a criticism. Responsibility is a choice.
I chose to be a JW. I chose to not be thrown out of the house, shunned, rejected by everyone close to me. I chose to not go to college, etc. I chose not to be a JW. I make different choices now. Blame doesn't have to enter into it, and I truly believe that the more you focus on blame, the less you experience the power your own responsibility.
Good points again PS. I used blame mostly because it's in the subject line. I wanted to make sure I stayed on topic.
Vicki certainly was heroic, and so are many others. You've made some tough decisions as well, and I applaud your efforts.
Whilst things are not all black and white as they have been presented by you, by and large we have to accept some responsibility for the fact that we became JWs and lived that way of life for some period of time. ...
I very strongly disagree with this statement. I got out as soon as possible. Not all is possible when you're under the age of 18.
Let me tell you what things would be like if I accepted the responsibility for being a JW....
I was responsible for Christmas being taken away from me at age 5.
I was responsible for the unnecessary beatings because my mother believed the bible when it said "spare the rod & spoil the child"
I was responsible for being kicked and punched daily at school because I threw my burden upon jehovah.
I was responsible for the depression I had because I couldn't get out of being a JW at age 16 or I'd be kicked out of the house.
I was responsible for my thoughts on suicide because of my depression.
If I were to think like this, I wouldn't be half as happy as I am now.
Nos, no child is responsible for what is done to them. You are making responsible decisions to deal with the effects of those things. The idea of responsibility is an adult one, and I see that in the original post on this thread the words "as an adult" were used several times. I respectfully suggest that your situation is not being referred to here, especially as you lead off with "under the age of 18".
Regards,
PS
What I think the problem is - we are having trouble distinguishing between blame and responsibility.
When we assign blame, we decide who is at fault, who is guilty. The blame or guilt, for the WT's irrational life, can be spread 100% on the WTS and parents for children in dubdom. As those children get older, they assume more of the blame until it is probably 50/50 between them and the WT. Some of them rise in position and power, and thereby are assuming more guilt for themselves individually, especially as they see the truth behind the smoke and mirrors and yet still propagate them - some of the dubs at the top probably have close to 90% of the guilt, although a certain percentage must still be assigned to those who drew THEM in.
As for who is responsible for improving your life from this point - well, the instant you have the complete truth about the troof, you are 100% responsible for your own life. Before, you probably split the responsibility with those who conned you into the WT.
CZAR of the drawing fine lines class
Wanna play with words? Merriam Webster Dictionary
Main Entry: 1 blame 
Pronunciation: 'blAm
Function: transitive verb
1 : to find fault with : CENSURE <the right to praise or blame a literary work>
2 a : to hold responsible <they blame me for everything> b : to place responsibility for <blames it on me>
-----------------
Main Entry: guilt
Pronunciation: 'gilt
Function: noun
1 : the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty; broadly : guilty conduct
2 a : the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously b : feelings of culpability especially for imagined offenses or from a sense of inadequacy : SELF-REPROACH
3 : a feeling of culpability for offenses
-----------------------
Main Entry: re·spon·si·bil·i·ty
Pronunciation: ri-"spän(t)-s&-'bi-l&-tE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Date: 1786
1 : the quality or state of being responsible : as a : moral, legal, or mental accountability b : RELIABILITY, TRUSTWORTHINESS
2 : something for which one is responsible : BURDEN
-------------------------
Main Entry: re·spon·si·ble
Pronunciation: ri-'spän(t)-s&-b&l
Function: adjective
1 a : liable to be called on to answer b (1) : liable to be called to account as the primary cause, motive, or agent <a committee responsible for the job> (2) : being the cause or explanation <mechanical defects were responsible for the accident> c : liable to legal review or in case of fault to penalties
2 a : able to answer for one's conduct and obligations : TRUSTWORTHY b : able to choose for oneself between right and wrong
3 : marked by or involving responsibility or accountability <responsible financial policies> <a responsible job>
4 : politically answerable; especially : required to submit to the electorate if defeated by the legislature -- used especially of the British cabinet
--------------------
Sometimes we get so caught up in the old WT game of playing with the meanings of words we don't really know what we are talking about anymore
I am not responsible for the lies that the WTS taught me. I hold them fully accountable for loss of lives, innocence, careers, health - both mental and physical, - broken families and on and on.
BUT now that I know the truth I am responsible here on out. Now that I know better I make the choices and hand that over to no one. Lesson Learned.
I grew up being told I had no choice - in anything. I was told how to sit and where to sit and when to stand and where to lie down. I was taught to be a submissive victim. I was 35 years old before the idea that I had a choice even entered my head for the first time in my life. It was a revolutionary concept to me. And it took a week for it to sink in - the meaning of personal choice.
And my experience tells me quite loudly that most life-long victims don't have a clue about personal responsibility. It isn't something we are born with.
OK getting off my soap box
