by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends
Great post, Lee - I especially liked the negative and positive connotations of the words in each definition.
So as adults are we only responsible when we are given accurate information? Or are we also responsible for what we choose to believe?
I suggest that we as humans are born with the ability to be personally responsible, once we are adults. Most of us abdicate it, as Lee points out.
Or are we also responsible for what we choose to believe?
oh yeah..you buy the ticket you take the ride..
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
I completely understand the argument that people need to take responsibility for their actions. Unless people quit excusing their present difficult circumstances by blaming the Watchtower Society or others, they'll never move on in life. Nevertheless, some posters are neglecting some pertinent facts.
A child raised as a JW is usually not given the opportunity to learn enough to make intelligent, truly free choices as an adult. More to the point, a child doesn't instantaneously acquire this knowledge on his or her 18th birthday. Because of the extreme "mind control" or whatever you want to call the sort of one-sided, dishonest influence of the JW community (of course, created and sustained by the Watchtower Society), JW children largely grow up convinced that the very knowledge that would free them is evil, is from Satan himself. It takes a special, unusually independent child to overcome this influence while still a child. How many are that independent? Certainly not I. So expecting people to instantly be capable of making independent decisions upon legally becoming an adult is to ignore realities of human nature. We know perfectly well that people mature at different ages, and to a certain extent the law takes that into account.
It often takes many years of adult experience with the world apart from the insular JW community to gain enough knowledge and independence of mind to be able to make truly free decisions. A decision coerced by bad choices is in no sense free, even though one can argue that all decisions are free. A classic example from the movie "The Godfather" shows that they are not. A mafioso hands a check for $10,000 made out to himself to the guy he's extorting money from, puts a gun to his head and says, "In ten seconds either your blood or your signature will be on this check." Obviously the victim is not able to make a free choice. The same applies to someone raised a JW who is faced with a decision to quit the cult. "In ten days either you'll pretend to love Jehovah or we'll make sure that all of your family and friends shun you." Again the victim ? and I use this word consciously ? obviously doesn't have a truly free choice, because he's given only two bad choices rather than a smorgasbord of good and bad ones.
People who convert to the JWs as adults are rarely given the full truth about "The Truth" before coming under strong influence either to be baptized or to lose the friendship of their "Bible teacher" and other JWs they've become friendly with. They're not told about things like the "two-witness" rule in child molestation cases, nor that the rite of baptism is an explicit and legally enforceable contract to obey the Watchtower Society no matter what sort of nonsense it teaches. Instead they're only told about the bright, shiny promises of a "new world". While the majority of people are able to see through the B.S. and not get sucked in, some do. Are they stupid? Not necessarily. Some are simply too trusting. So when such a person finally learns the real truth about "The Truth", and quits, and suffers the consequences of shunning and so forth, is it reasonable to tell him, "Hey, it's your fault! You were too gullible!" I don't think so. While this person may have made a free choice to join up, given the limited and therefore incorrect information given up to the point of baptism, the very fact that the information was incomplete means that his choice was not truly free.
Of course, the above applies double to children raised as JWs.
To argue that every person who becomes or remains a JW as an adult has made a truly free choice is to ignore the reality that "cult mind control" exists and can exert strong influence on people. As far as I'm concerned, it's another form of blaming the victim. Sure, once victims become aware that they're victims, it becomes largely their responsibility to get away from the abuser, but it's foolish to claim that all people should always be intelligent and mature enough to know when they're being victimized. People just don't work that way.
AlanF
I am not talking about whether they know enough to make the decision, I am talking about if they are capable. As we have agreed in the past, until we are ready, we reject all arguemnts, evidence, and information. It ain't about what we know.
Am I capable of voting for the right candidate for President? Yes. Am I going to vote for the right candidate? Many on this board would tell you I am not (due to my apparent political leanings), and that my failure to vote for the right candidate is a matter of my ignorance (otherwise I would be able to listen to Sean Hannity without throwing up).
If one person can do it, we all can do it - and, we don't do it till we're ready. As recent events on this board have proved, it requires neither intelligence nor maturity to leave the WTS. The comment that I am blaming the victim is interesting - my comments on blame have, I hoped, cleared this up already. So we were lied to - so was every voter in the US in 2000. The fact is Witnesses choose to go along with the WTS. They are not coerced physically. They have significant social, familial, and sometimes economic pressures. And yet many leave every year. If it's possible for one, it's possible for all. The contempt some of us feel for Witnesses doesn't serve us... especially if we feel that we ourselves were once worthy of such contempt. More effective to look at it as a choice taht we've reversed, and move on. Not easy... but much more empowering than playing the victim as an adult.
Alan Excellent - absolutely spot on as some here would say
Some play the victim, PS, but certainly not the majority.
Answer this: Did the mafioso coerce his victim? Why or why not?
AlanF
Good points Alan.
In my view, being pressured, deceived, and especially coerced can make the situation much more complicated. With Vicki Boer, from what I read, there was a system in place, which she was born and raised in, which effectively took away her fee will, espcially so at that time in her life, while she was still very much reliant on her family and the elders.
We all find ourselves in various postions and circumstances in life and in regard to decision-making. And as Phantom mentioned, I am trying to look at this from the perspective of how a person feels when confronted with such a dilemma as leaving the jws, or acting in a manner different from directives that might be issued from the Organization or its representives. To me, that's key because we make many decisons based on our own perceptions and emotions.
Thumbs up on Alan's post. Absolutely nailed it.
Because of the extreme "mind control" or whatever you want to call the sort of one-sided, dishonest influence of the JW community (of course, created and sustained by the Watchtower Society), JW children largely grow up convinced that the very knowledge that would free them is evil, is from Satan himself.
THIS is, in my opinion, the key to Watchtowers evil. And it's very hard for me to talk about the Watchtower years in my life and my families life and what destruction it reaped. It isn't easy trying to quell the still, deep-seeded emotion that exists within my core.
It is filth that is hard to cleanse. It is a human stain.
Thank you for posting this Alan.
Serious question (more importantly, a request) here Alan:
Will you PLEASE take what you wrote here and get it to those who need to KNOW(ledge) the facts that you state so 'spot on'?
If not, WHY not?
I have saved it in my notepad and want to send it to all my contacts. It is so needing to be 'out there' for all to WITNESS.
What a gift it would be if you'd get yourself on radio or tv somehow and tell the world just how intricate the 'filth' IS. To warn all of what WILL be LIFE IN THE TOWER.
No one can break the Watchtowers Rot down like you CAN.
At least think about it, okay?
Thanks again. I'll be calling soon to elaborate on this more.
I still wonder how you ever were a jw!!
sKally
I guess that there are two elements to the wrong:
The person who accepted the wrong teaching, and the organization for being there...
They preyed on people like me... weak and lonely. I accepted, and there is no doubt that I am responsible too. However, the WTBTS also shares the blame for being a cult, and preforming the wrong.
My problem was I blamed myself too much.
ahhhhhh but Shamus If you are going to blame yourself then give yourself some credit too - You ARE here and not still trapped in the borg
