I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends

  • SanFranciscoJim
    SanFranciscoJim
    Unlike most other religions, Jehovah's Witnesses strictly enforce following their rules with reproof, disfellowshipping, and shunning. When someone chooses to remain a part of a religion for fear they will be cut off from their families and loved ones, it no longer becomes a choice, but an ultimatum.

    I know it is easy to see our former religion as a big bad guy, but in reality this statement you wrote could apply to many religions. If not all of them to some sort. As extreme goes, the Witnesses would be way down the list on religions who punish their followers who leave.

    The only other religion I know of that shuns its members with the vehemence of the JWs is the Amish. I think it is safe to say that 90% or more of members of religions in western civilization do not live in fear of being cut off from family members and friends. What JWs experience is a form of bondage.

    Last night I had a legal thought. As the law goes, it does not matter what you claim your religion told you to do, you are still accountable. As a reference, see the Charles Manson murder trails and all follow up attempts by his followers to get out of prison. They all claim to be innocent and people who did something that was not of their free-will. Yet they are personally responsible for their actions.

    The WTBTS legal department would be thrilled to see you post this. They count on the legal accountability of individual members rather than as a corporation. This is why elders on judicial committes are told to inform erring members brought before a committee that the decisions are theirs, not that of the Society. This is a tactic commonly referred to as "plausible deniability."

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Interesting points SFJ

    When you stop to think about it they are scared we will hold them responsible. They work really hard to make sure there is no paper trail so they will not be taken to court and sued. Ya think perhaps they know they bear a certain amount of moral responsibility for their policies as well as legal?

    No tape recorders paper or witnesses in judicial committees - really has to make one wonder

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    I would not credit them with fear of moral implications - legal concerns are all.

    I would suggest avoiding legal citations, as there are a plethora of them going in both directions on this case. As the spirtied posting shows, our culture is at a crossroads of sorts in this area, and a consensus is impossible with the divergent opinions expressed.

    Allow me to attempt to cut the baby in half.

    Can everyone agree that

    A) some undefined degree of personal responsibility (between 1 and 100%, to remain undefined) is incumbent upon the adult competent actor, regardless of misleading, manipulative, or deceptive statements which contribute to the deed or deeds, because of their free agency? No making someone feel bad, no guilt - and, and acknowledgement of choices made?

    B) and that those who actively manipulate, mislead, and deceive are fully responsible for their acts in doing so?

    I suggest that these are not contradictory, and that careful consideration will reveal that.

    I am going to be doin' dial-up for a few days due to a family medical situation, so I will possible not post until the weekend. Regards, all.

    PS

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    PS Yup I can handle the compromise scenario easily. It allows for the grey areas and people can fit themselves in to whatever shade is appropriate for them

    Hope your family situation is resolved positively

  • JT
    JT
    Who's responsible for me being there at that moment where I could get run over? I am.

    why does this fifty cent line sound sorta like the wt telling women they are responsible for being raped"

    i pray to god that your wife, mom or daughter is never raped and some Police officer looks you in the face and quotes your "Own Words to you"

    sad mindset you have my friend

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    "...who's responsible for him driving drunk? He is."

    Apparently you didn't read my whole post, or your emotional attachment to what you were afraid I was saying got in the way of seeing what I was saying. I was not saying anything of the kind, and for you to call me names reveals that you feel strongly about the issue, not that you actually perceive any truth about me or my life, which you know nothing at all about.

    If it reminded you of a situation that you feel strongly about in a negative way, I'm sorry - but these situations are not the same, and I would respectfully ask you to read a bit closer and think about it a bit before deciding that yu know what flavor of asshole you think I am.

  • spiritwalker
    spiritwalker

    (Lady Lee) You might hate this response, but you bought it and bought into the product before you researched it enough. You trusted people who were only trying to sell you, not help you and in the end ... you are responsible for not doing better research before the purchase. When you start trusting everyone for their word and thinking no one lies to you. You end up in cults.

    "When I was a child, I thought as a child. Now I am a adult, I think as an adult." The difference between the child and the adult, is the experience I have gained to ask more questions and accept less answers.

    The only other religion I know of that shuns its members with the vehemence of the JWs is the Amish. I think it is safe to say that 90% or more of members of religions in western civilization do not live in fear of being cut off from family members and friends. What JWs experience is a form of bondage.

    Sorry, you lack balanced information. The Witnesses are a small religion that shunned a percentage of those who leave. Many do not get shunned and many carry on normal lives as former Witnesses, as they did as Witnesses with their friends and family. I know several, including myself. So I can not agree with your statement. You are making a blanket statement, and excluding the exception. There is a also the fact that you are more informed about the Witnesses and thus your statement can not leave out biased prejudice.

    As a general rule in business. Employee walks up and says, "We must really be screwing up as a company, I am getting a dozen calls a day from people who are upset." Manager sets employee down and says, "We have 7,000,000 million customers, and you get complaints from a dozen a day. Come to me when you get 6,999,988 calls a days." The people who scream the loudest, are not always the best measuring stick to gauge a problem. Just the loudest and most seen! 20,000 Witnesses leave each year. I have not even meet 500 former Witnesses in my life. I would not persume to think the small known percentage is speaking or representing the large unknown.

    The WTBTS legal department would be thrilled to see you post this. They count on the legal accountability of individual members rather than as a corporation. This is why elders on judicial committees are told to inform erring members brought before a committee that the decisions are theirs, not that of the Society. This is a tactic commonly referred to as "plausible deniability."

    I don't blame them, in a sue happy world, all corporations do this. I see it as survival of the most legally sharp and not something that is a source to push blame on.

    As an additional thought. A man drinks beer to quench his thirst and gets drunk, and he drinks and drinks and drinks more. He gets behind the wheel and drives down the road and kills people. Is he not at fault, because the beer was not something he created and he drank it with the intent of quenching thirst and not harming people? Or, is he at fault, because he actually drank something that he should have known better about and not taken it to an extreme. As an adult (stressing adult), you better wise up and realize that Lenin was right. Religion is the opium of the people! Yet, you took the opium and you should have known better as an adult.

    Question, what in the hell is up with all the references in this thread to rape and abuse? This is a discussion about religion and what you did as a Witnesses and not blaming the Watchtower for all your actions. Is there some central theme with modern former Witnesses to get stuck on the rape or abuse issue in all thoughts? If I brought it up in the original post, I would see the reason for it. I didn't though, but the follow-ups sure seem to. It reminds me of the whole meeting at work scene, where you are trying to discuss a new policy and some employee raises their hand and states, "yes, but what if it is a odd day of the week, raining and with a full moon and I am facing left and their is a dog in the building with one leg missing. What do we do then?" ... (Sudden Silence) ... you stand up and say, "exactly how did that come up in this discussion," and the person response, "well it could happen?" Basically, when I want to discuss rape and abuse and what is accountable and when with the Society, I will bring it up. Otherwise, can we leave it out of a discussion about, "what you did as a Witnesses and not blaming the Watchtower for all your actions." The practice is called "shock deflection", which is when you bring something up so touchy and so taboo, that people immediately back down for fear that they will say the wrong thing. Ultimately, nothing gets solved and people learn to use it at anytime they want the discussion to end. I am sure there is some exception, somewhere to everything, but not the average rule. Sorry, it's the manager in me talking.

  • spiritwalker
    spiritwalker

    As a side note. WOW! Thanks for all the responses to this thread. I had no idea this one would get this big and with a new member posting at that. I just wanted to add, that despite some who might take issues like this in a personal insulting way. I think discussion on anything is a great freedom.

  • pharisee
    pharisee

    It's funny, AlanF has you guys (Spirit Walker and Phantom Stranger) totally cornered, and all you can do is roll on your backs and pee all over yourself.

    Why don't you answer his questions?

    You know why, because you would have to admit you are wrong!

    Sad really?

  • spiritwalker
    spiritwalker
    It's funny, AlanF has you guys (Spirit Walker and Phantom Stranger) totally cornered, and all you can do is roll on your backs and pee all over yourself.

    Why don't you answer his questions?

    You know why, because you would have to admit you are wrong!

    Sad really?

    Yes, it is sad. As a poster on many other type boards I do so readily see certain behavior coming through in many discussions. One such behavior is the open ended comment, that is presented in a way that it implies that the person has made a point and yet, they haven't. (Would you care to bring up rape and abuse? or perhaps how this does not apply with children?) I have honestly never seen such a pride issue so strong as this issue of admitting you are responsible for your actions as an adult. I guess some of us are just a little more secure with that statement, then others, and we don't have to make a statement that does not detail anything to make our point. Especially, when I have repeated it over and over again. Yet, does it even matter? No, because message boards should not change someone's mind and be a center for moral code and discussion. They should just be a place, where we use our minds.

    As a side note, define cornered? I never once felt my opinion has changed and lost merit from the beginning. I started at the same place I left off and only seen some serious dance moves of people trying to act like I am wrong. When a lot know I am right. Personal Responsibility, I just love those two words. Do you? Because if you did, you would see it's value and not see it as something to deflect on to others. Honestly, the way this minority of former Witnesses seeks to blame the Witnesses for everything, makes me sad. I seriously doubt the healing value of a board that revels in the blame game. I am glad to see that some got my point though, because it was not exactly in Bible code.

    Oh well

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