I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower

by spiritwalker 132 Replies latest jw friends

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Ultimately, man should not ask what the meaning of his life is, but rather must recognize that it is he who is asked. In a word, each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.

    We who lived in concentration camps can remember the men who walked through the huts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. They may have been few in number, but they offer sufficient proof that everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way.

    Viktor Frankl, who as a young neurosurgeon and psychiatrist was sent to Germany's camps in 1942, lost his family therein. He subsequently wrote Man's Search for Meaning and over 30 other books. He died in 1997 at the age of 92. When freed by the American forces in 1945, he became head neurological physician at the Vienna Polyclinic Hospital for 25 years, after which he taught as a professor at Harvard, Stanford, and other universities in the US. I will state that no matter what travails any of us have endured, this man knew suffering, and the evils that humans can inflict on each other, better than any of us. I stand by what he said. If the camps couldn't take it away, the WTS can't either.

    I respect those that hold differing opinions. I believe that this is a position of personal philosophy, and I appreciate the opportunity to expound upon mine. Good night, all.

  • Phantom Stranger
    Phantom Stranger

    Oh, one last thing:

    Depression and anxiety disorders ? the two most common mental illnesses ? each affect 19 million American adults annually (NIMH, 1999).

    http://www.nmha.org/infoctr/factsheets/15.cfm (the Web site of the National Mental Health Association).

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    PS I do see where you are coming from and yes you do have a right to your opinion. But it is just that an opinion as mine is.

    It is interesting you bring up Victor Frankel - some one I admire for his attitude and beliefs.

    But please do not make the mistake of comparing Holocaust survivors to this situation. There are some very important differences.

    Anyone who was in the camps had support and freedom to believe what they wanted. They may have been improsoned for it but while in the camp they could believe as they wanted. They were not limited by education, association, experience or information. While some may not have been educated, many were, and they spoke openly about their beliefs - even debating the meaning of their situations.

    JWs today do not get this same freedom to examine beliefs and perspectives. They are limited to a very finite set of variables dictated by the WTS. They do not listen to others beliefs. They will not even debate others beliefs and as we see here often get into serious roadblocks when they try. Reasoning ability is not encouraged. In fact people are to suppress any thoughts that go contrary to WT teachings.

    In such an environment most people do not stop to consider options because they believe there is only 1 if they want to live.

    I suspect many people here would back down if you were to give us the same courtesy many here in the thread have given to you of being able to see your point but still being in disagreement.

    It isn't a contest of who is right or wrong. I come from a very abusive perspective. And abuse means all the different kinds there are - emotional, physical, sexual, spousal, financial, political, racial, and yes spiritual. It exists. I lived it all and I claim my perspective as you claim yours

  • spiritwalker
    spiritwalker
    Both of you refuse to discuss the problem of precisely where in someone's life he or she becomes an adult.

    In the USA, the legal age of an adult is 18. In other countries it is 16. At this point, by law, you have the right to make decisions without parental consent. If you decide to stay a Witness and follow their teachings. You are responsible for your actions and should not blame the Watchtower. Sorry that does not paint the cherry picture some would want it to be, but it is the way I see it and nothing presented has made me think otherwise. The buck stops right here with me, and only me.

    JWs today do not get this same freedom to examine beliefs and perspectives. They are limited to a very finite set of variables dictated by the WTS. They do not listen to others beliefs. They will not even debate others beliefs and as we see here often get into serious roadblocks when they try. Reasoning ability is not encouraged. In fact people are to suppress any thoughts that go contrary to WT teachings.

    No one is holding a gun to their head. No one is forcing them to go to the Kingdom Hall. They can leave whenever they want and they choose not too. Blaming the organization for the things they have put in place, is kind of a chicken style move. We as ADULTS can stand on our own two feet at anytime and read other material and leave the organization. We are their because of fears WE accepted and made our own. We are who WE are because we let it happen. Sorry, but it is just not going to happen, I have a hard time blaming the Watchtower. As controlling organizations go, they are very weak on the global scale and their punishment for leaving is very weak and superficial (WOW! You loose contact with some family and friends ... but you still have your life.). Especially, if you have researched and accepted the fact that they are a waste of your life and time.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Well Spiritwalker, You have really stirred the waters. I like your post and admire your stand. You and Phantom Stranger have made some excellent points. And You stipulated from the start that this was about adults, therefore children and the question of 'when they become adults' is irrelevant. While you came across as rather black and white about responsibility I suspect you were countering the common 'it's the Watchtower's fault' mentality. We left a fraud. it boils down to the fact that we all once believed a fantasy. We were given false information and believed it. The issue is this: Was the truth available for us to find. YES. Were we capable of finding and digesting the other side of the story? Most of us here, YES. Were we physically and mentally prohibited from examining the truth about the "truth"? As children, yes. As adults, NO. If we chose as adults not to examine the truth available to us it was probably do to FEAR of the consequences that the WT imposed on us. They did not control us. We allowed them to control us out of FEAR. I believe it was Allen from whom I first heard it is when the Pain of staying in the organization becomes greater than the Pain of leaving we finally leave. When the pain becomes too great then we face our FEAR and reject it. Then we allow ourselves to look at the other side of the story and for the first time take responsibility for our own lives. Bottom line is most will not look at the facts because they are afraid, either of what they will find or of getting caught investigating. The WT is accountable for the misinformation and the fear. We are accountable for how we deal with it. As adults we either yield to it or face it. We are here because we faced the fear and found the truth. Those who have done this have accepted responsibility for themselves. The WT mislead us and scared us but "control" is relative. We have to accept some responsibility for yielding to the fear and misinformation and letting them 'control' us. Jst2

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    btt,

    Come on, don't make me feel like I killed another good thread.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    KILLER lol

    sigh

    Maybe my life was just too traumatic to really understand - I mean really understand - how this works in some of you

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I think that jst2laws has found the compromise statement that resolves our differences. I agree completely.

    Now, the question is, what is this newfound assignment of responsiblity going to motivate us to do in the future? Should the WT be "allowed" to continue its domination of its people? Or shall we take action in some way, to either discredit, disprove, or overthrow them?

    CZAR

  • Euphemism
    Euphemism

    Right on, Lady Lee... and I think that goes to the heart of the Frankl quote as well.

    I think that someone has to be at a certain level of emotional health to recognize the options that are open to them. After all, did most of the people in the concentration camps react as bravely as those ones whom Frankl describes? I don't think so.

    I don't think that a sharp line can be drawn between children and adults. After all, there are people on this forum who were raised as JWs, but who saw the religion for what it was while they were still kids, and left it as soon as they turned 18. The rest of us--those who stayed--didn't magically acquire the ability to think for ourselves when we were 18. And I don't mean the cognitive ability... I mean the emotional ability.

    I have no problem if someone says that they, personally, don't feel that they should blame the Watchtower for their own history. That's their decision. But to try to state a general rule, or claim that others shouldn't blame the Watchtower... that's what I have a problem with.

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    LadyLee

    Maybe my life was just too traumatic to really understand

    Isn't it the 'trauma' many have experienced that makes this kind of thread so controversial and sometimes offensive?

    And the trauma wounds people and sometimes handicaps them. How can the (emotionally or even mentally) injured and handicapped person be expected to function as a fully free and independent person with choices? Perhaps that is why those who have been there have difficulty understanding others who step up and say "you had choices, it is your responsibility".

    Thats why, to me it is not a black and white matter. We all have the right and responsibility to THINK FOR OURSELVES. Some of us gave that up to the WT willingly. Others due to age or circumstance (such as abuse wife) were sucked in without the opertunity to make a choice. My support of the thought that we cannot blame the WT 100% only applies to those like myself who either went in freely and with full capacity to think for ourselves or later had that capacity but fear kept us from excercising it. Being dupped or lied to is no excuse in this case nor is fear. We made the choice to give into it.

    Steve

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