Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    Fleetwood Mac had a cool album called "Rumours" - one of the songs was entitled "Never Going Back Again."

    Another was "I Don't Want To Know."

    Hey, I think I would like to know, maybe "@vienne" knows...who are these people in these pictures here? Rumour has it some of them are associated with the "upper eschelon" in the Watchtower hierarchy and their relations have some say in the Annual Meeting type decisions...

    https://jws-library.one/?search=rothschild



  • dropoffyourkeylee
    dropoffyourkeylee

    I think the man in the black suit in row 3 right and row 4 left is almost certainly A H MacMillan

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    Those photos you mentioned are from videos taken in the late 1930s.

    (Here is a better screenshot...)


    The video that screenshot is taken from can be viewed here:

    https://youtu.be/F7AV6-UT6BM?si=pRz3SwZjRpHMHwQM

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    (For comparison, here are two photos of AH Macmillan, the first is with Grant Suiter when Grant was secretary-treasurer. Grant became secretary-treasurer in 1947.)


    It doesn't appear to be the same man. The facial angles and glasses are different.

    How interesting it would be to peruse the list of voting members from any given time period in Watchtower history.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345
    1. "Men" as Symbolic: The description in Revelation 14:4 uses the Greek word παρθένοι (virgins) in its masculine form, which is often interpreted to mean literal men. However, as you've clarified, Witnesses do not believe the 144,000 are all male. If the term "virgins" is understood symbolically to include both men and women, then this suggests the description is not meant to be taken literally.
    2. Virginity as Symbolic: The term "virgin" is used to indicate spiritual purity, not literal sexual chastity. This symbolic interpretation is broadly accepted among biblical scholars. In Revelation, virginity represents loyalty to Christ and separation from spiritual fornication (false worship). If this is symbolic, it further reinforces that the literal details of this group (such as gender and virginity) are symbolic, not factual.
    3. 12 Tribes and the Number 12,000 as Symbolic: Revelation 7:4-8 describes the 144,000 as coming from 12,000 members of each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This, too, is widely understood as symbolic. The tribes listed in Revelation do not correspond exactly to the historical tribes of Israel. In fact, the tribe of Dan is omitted, and Joseph and Manasseh are added in a way that differs from traditional tribal listings. Scholars interpret these symbolic 12 tribes to represent the spiritual Israel, encompassing all of God's people, not literal Jews.
    4. Israelites as Symbolic: If the description of the 12 tribes is symbolic and does not refer to literal Israelites, this suggests that the entire makeup of the 144,000 is spiritual and not ethnic. Galatians 3:28-29 teaches that in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, and that all believers are considered Abraham’s seed and heirs to the promises made to Israel.

    If elements like men, virgins, tribes, and Israelites are all understood symbolically, why would the number 144,000 itself not also be symbolic? Interpreting everything else as symbolic while insisting the number 144,000 is literal seems inconsistent.

    The book of Revelation is filled with symbolic numbers — 7, 10, 12, and 1,000, for example, all of which represent completeness or perfection. The number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) likely represents the fullness of God’s people, not a literal, limited number of individuals of separate "class".

    To interpret the 144,000 as a literal number while accepting that the other details about this group are symbolic creates a contradiction. Consistency would suggest that the number 144,000 is also symbolic, representing the full number of those who will be spiritually pure and redeemed by Christ. Thus, the idea that only 144,000 will go to heaven or rule with Christ is based on a selective reading of the text that does not account for the larger symbolic context of Revelation.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    The Mosaic Law prescribed extracting a literal number out of the entire nation of dedicated Jews for the purpose of ministering in a specific assignment.

    The numbers "7" and "7" in the vision Joseph interpreted for Pharaoh during the years of plenty and the years of famine were literal even though the cows and grain were symbolic.

    The numbers "3" and "3" were literal in the vision Joseph interpreted for the baker and the cupbearer even though the cups and the baskets were figurative.

    The number of beasts in Daniel were sometimes literal and sometimes figurative depending on the context. "There are four beasts" was interpreted by the angel as "four kingdoms" and it was literal, including the "king of Greece" that the angel named.

    In Joseph's dream with the sun moon and 11 stars bowing down to him, the number "11" was literal and fulfilled when his 11 brothers bowed down to him in Egypt.

    Thus the idea that the number "144,000" must be figurative is based on a selective reading of the text that does not take into account the larger context and understanding of the scriptures, namely, the entire Bible.

  • a watcher
    a watcher

    Jehovah will choose just as many anointed as He wants, be it 144,000, more, or less.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

    All Christians are "anointed" with holy spirit if they are truly followers of Christ. It's not possible to follow Christ without being anointed with holy spirit.

    The problem is with the English word "anointed." It has more than one meaning and the context of the original language word it's translated from needs to be considered.

    David was anointed to be king, but he wasn't anointed to become a spirit creature.

    Samson was anointed with holy spirit that empowered him but he wasn't anointed to be king.

    The priests in ancient Israel were anointed for a priestly assignment but they weren't kings.

    The people of Israel of old as a nation were anointed for a specific purpose at that time but they weren't anointed to be spirit creatures.

    The Watchtower and other denominations have scrambled the brains of people as to the meaning of "anointed" in Revelation.

  • dropoffyourkeylee
    dropoffyourkeylee
    It doesn't appear to be the same man. The facial angles and glasses are different.

    Possibly I am wrong, but it still looks like MacMillan to me.

  • FreeTheMasons
    FreeTheMasons

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