Jesus and the two criminals dying beside him..... (page 6)

LittleToe

Crinkle:
Agreed.
Sadly some Christians may be in that boat, too, if Matt.7:22,23 is anything to go by.

Oh well, let them be in that boat then. I agree that if works were all it took then those works would eventually turn into a form of human judgement and something to boast over. Like...I don't know...certain Witnesses that have more hours than you do. I guess that makes them more saved....right?

JosephMalik

Littletoe said: Sadly some Christians may be in that boat, too, if Matt.7:22,23 is anything to go by.

Littletoe,

Once again you missed the point. You confuse pretense and abuse of the faith with decency. There are many around just like that. But this is what our Lord actually said and taught:

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Were such many decent? No. In fact they abused our Lord by using His name to further their own interests. They were workers of iniquity and their works were wicked. Works as the basis for judgement can go either way.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

All this has already been shown to you all. It should be enough.

Joseph

JT

The King James Version reads: And Jesus said unto him, "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" Luke 23:43
The New World Translation Reads: And he said to him "Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in paradise." Luke 23:43
The movie I was watching quoted or at least was closer to the King James version.
Maybe I am wrong but the same scriptures seem to imply two different things. The King James version implies that the criminal would be with Christ immediately after his death. The NWT doesn't imply a time at all

This thread clearly illustrates the Problem with the bible-

with the movement of one coma, a major doctrine can be changed-

while i think the wt explanation on many issues are just plain GOOFY,

they don't have the market on Goofy Dogmas by any means

just consider what the text says in the KJV- while on the stake jesus was suppose to have told this dude, TODAY you will be in paradise

now you really have 2 problems-

1. what did he mean by TODAY?

2. What did he mean by Paradise?

now all of you must admit that jesus according to kjv did say TODAY and not "Next Week" or "Next Month"

so at the end of THAT DAY - did jesus and the man hook up in paradise later on that evening

NOPE

cause jesus was DEAD FOR 3 DAYS, so did Jesus lie when he told the poor guy "TODAY" or was he just trying to help the pooor boy deal with the pain?

so we know he really didn't mean TODAY AS IN SAT- TODAY-

now think about this, if you were trapped in a dying situation, under a crushed car and the Fire dept guy is standing there with the Jaws of Life and says

"Hey buddy we are going to get you out TODAY!!!

NOW HOw MANY OF you really would say in your mind as you are feeling the pain of a 4000lb car crush your pelvic bone, be thinking "O YEA i KNOW HE REALLY MEANT 3 OR 4 DAYS FROM NOW

yea right

so here we got a dude dying on a LIGHT POLE OR TELEPHONE POLE you could argue either one i guess and some guy next to you says YOU WILL BE WITH ME IN PARADISE TODAY BUDDY'

I HARDly think that you are thinking days , weeks, years-

second problem, jesus didn't say "Hey buddy I will see you Up in heaven"

try as you may, he didn't say that and he could have, but he didn't

once again, what do folks think of when one uses the word Paradise, must folks don't think of Heaven they think of hanging 10 on the BIG ISLAND of hawaii-

what i find most interesting about the bible is how when it suits the believer and depending on what version of belief system they will use the bible in one way and 5 min later use the bible in another way

i have often heard many religions, including jw, say something like this:

when the bible uses the term EYE, HAND,FACE, ETC OF GOD--it is so we can relate as humans-- since god has not literal hand, face, eye

yet 5 min later when something that we all can relate to such as when your boss says:

"You will get paid "TODAY" we all understand he ain't talking about 3 /4 days later our check might be in our account- smile

yet when common terms are used by the bible that we all can relate to on a daily basis often times they have to be given some COSMIC EXPLANATION-

BUT HEY YOU GOT to love a book that has a LIFE OR DEATH propostion-if you get it wrong and yet millions don't understand it

A Paduan

Joseph, you seem to be hell bent on deluding yourself via your "proofs"

But this is what our Lord actually said and taught:

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There is nothing in the above teaching to show that those spoken of did in fact do what they said, rather than simply what they thought they were doing - and even so their faith was in something other than the Lord (their dead works perhaps?)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

God is God of the living - people of faith

JosephMalik

There is nothing in the above teaching to show that those spoken of did in fact do what they said, rather than simply what they thought they were doing - and even so their faith was in something other than the Lord (their dead works perhaps?)

Paduan,

Again it makes no difference even if they deluded themselves. What were they really when all such trappings are stripped away? Workers of iniquity, period. That is what our Lord said and that is what they really were. There is no way you can deflect such truth and turn it into dead works (apparently not serious in your opinion?) the way you have done here. God is the God of the living as you say, but this does not mean that such living must have fatih or even know of Him when such Judgement takes place. In fact faith is not a factor as the texts provided show. After all the Saints (holy ones) are not the only ones that will be saved.

Joseph

LittleToe

Joseph:
Any comment on Paul's teaching?

JosephMalik

LittleToe,

Just what teaching/text did you have in mind?

Joseph

eisenstein

LOL on A Paduan's first post to this thread

You all have good points...

Also, something to keep in mind is that a DAY with Jehovah is as a thousand years...as in the case of Adam when God told him he would die the very day he ate of the forbidden fruit...

So, maybe the evil doer was ressurrected within a day to heaven with Jesus.

From my recollection of the story the evil doers had already died before they had to pierce Jesus and kill him...And no one could enter heaven before Jesus...

JMThoughts

eisenstein

LittleToe

Joseph:Eph.2:8-10

Jesus and the two criminals dying beside him.....

LittleToe

crinklestein

JosephMalik

JT

A Paduan

JosephMalik

LittleToe

JosephMalik

eisenstein

LittleToe

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