Jesus and the two criminals dying beside him.....

by sandy 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    In the story Jesus is telling the man he was worthy of going to Paradise in Hades to enjoy happiness until a final judgement.

    Peaceful Pete,

    There is nothing to enjoy nor is their any happiness in Hades. Paradise is simply another way to express the promised Kingdom here on earth

    Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Mt 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

    As for Hades we find no joy, happiness or anything of the sort in it according to: Ec 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

    The resurrection does not take place at the time of the final judgement. The resurrection takes place at our Lord?s return when the sheep are separated from the goats, but the final judgement takes place after the millennium has run its course and after such sheep have eaten from the tree of life planted in this paradise of God. As we already know, this thief has already overcome (found worthy to be a sheep) and was invited by our Lord to enjoy this promised Paradise.

    Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    I often thought Qoheleth-Ecclesiastes is one of closest texts we have to the 1st-century Sadducees' view...

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    I open-mindedly took a look at where the Greek word for "paradise (Paradisos) was used elsewhere in scripture, to see the context there used (rather than just going by Vine's and Strongs. Paul had the most to say.

    It's worth the research time, and seems IMHO to have the KJV putting the comma in the right place, too.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hello LT,

    There are, in fact, only 3 occurrences of the word in the N.T.: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7. In 2 Corinthians the "paradise" is identified to the "third heaven" (v. 2), which corresponds to the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch (which is probably a bit later but independent).

    About the comma in Luke 23:43, the best parallel is 22:34 (// Mark 22:30) where no ambiguity is possible and the "today" is definitely on the side of what is being said (not the time it's being said).

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Glad we agree
    It's not exactly a difficult study to verify, is it?

    I'm not so much getting into the location, as the placing of the comma, in my reply.
    Mark 22:30?? I'm not sure what you're quoting here (there is no such passage) did you mean "Luke" again?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Mark 14:30, sorry!

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    I also agree that pete's interpretation is correct.

    Luke's account of Jesus' response to the criminal (Luke 23:43) along with the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) can best be understood in light of the ideas that were popular among the Jews of the first century.

    The following are some of the ideas that had become popular among the Pre-Christian Israelites by the first century.

    1. Abraham would receive the faithful after their death (1).
    2. A chasm separated the faithful from the condemned in the afterlife (2).
    3. Rewards or punishments awaited them in the afterlife (3).
    Early Christians would have also understood the reference to Tartarus (4) (5) as a place of punishment for the fallen Angels (6).

    Matthew also provides evidence of influence. Please compare the following.

    Matt 10
    28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul;
    rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


    4 Maccabees (14)Let us have no fear of him who thinks he kills. (15)Great is
    the ordeal and peril of the soul that lies in wait in eternal torment
    for those who transgress the commandment of God.

    The following deutro-canonical books show that these ideas were established prior to the Christian writings:

    The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 10

    (1)Then the great angel came to me with the golden trumpet in his hand, and he blew it up to heaven. (2)Heaven opened from the place where the sun rises to where it sets, from the north to the south. (3)I saw the sea which I had seen at the bottom of Hades. Its waves came up to the clouds. (4)I saw all the souls sinking in it. I saw some whose hands were bound to their neck, with their hands and feet being fettered. (5)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who were bribed and they were given gold and silver until the souls of men were led astray." (6)And I saw others covered with mats of fire. (7)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who give money at interest, and they receive interest for interest." (8)And I also saw some blind ones crying out. And I was amazed when I saw all these works of God. (9)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are catechumens who heard the word of God, but they were not perfected in the work which they heard." (10) And I said to him, "Then do they not have repentance here?" He said, "Yes." (11)I said, "How long?" He said to me, "Until the day when the Lord will judge." (12)And I saw others with their hair on them. (13)I said, "Then there is hair and body in this place?" (14) He said, "Yes, the Lord gives body and hair to them as he desires."

    The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 10

    (1)And I also saw multitudes. He brought them forth. (2)As they looked at all of the torments they called out, praying before the Lord Almighty, saying, "We pray to you on account of those who are in all these torments so that you might have mercy on all of them." (3) And when I saw them, I said to the angel who spoke with me, "(Who are these?)" (4)He said, "These who beseech the Lord are Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. (5)Then at a certain hour daily they come forth with the great angel. He sounds a trumpet up to heaven and another sound upon the earth. (6)All the righteous hear the sound. They come running, praying to the Lord Almighty daily on behalf of these who are in all these torments."

    Testament of Abraham 12

    (1)While he was yet saying these things to me, behold (there were) two angels, with fiery aspect and merciless intention and relentless look, and they drove myriads of souls, mercilessly beating them with fiery lashes. (2)And the angel seized one soul. And they drove all the souls into the broad gate toward destruction. (3)Then we too followed the angels and we came inside that broad gate. (4)And between the two gates there stood a terrifying throne with the appearance of terrifying crystal, flashing like fire. (5)And upon it sat a wondrous man, bright as the sun, like unto a son of God. (6) Before him stood a table like crystal, all of gold and byssus. (7)On the table lay a book whose thickness was six cubits, while its breadth was ten cubits. (8)On its right and on its left stood two angels holding papyrus and ink and pen. (9)In front of the table sat a light-bearing angel, holding a balance in his hand. (10)[On] (his) left there sat a fiery angel, altogether merciless and relentless, holding a trumpet in his hand, which contained within it an all- consuming fire (for) testing the sinners. (11)And the wondrous man who sat on the throne was the one who judged and sentenced the souls. (12)The two angels on the right and on the left recorded. The one on the right recorded righteous deeds, while the one on the left (recorded) sins. (13)And the one who was in front of the table, who was holding the balance, weighed the souls. (14)And the fiery angel, who held the fire, tested the souls. (15)And Abraham asked the Commander-in-Chief Michael, "What are these things which we see?" And the Commander-in-chief said, "These things which you see, pious Abraham, are judgment and recompense." (16)And behold, the angel who held the soul in his hand brought it before the judge. (17)And the judge told one of the angels who served him, "Open for me this book and find for me the sins of this soul." (18)And when he opened the book he found its sins and righteous deeds to equally balanced, and he neither turned it over to the tortures nor (placed it among) those who were being saved but he set it in the middle.

    Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 4

    (1)And the prophet said, "Lord, I shall never cease arguing the case withyou." (2)And God said, "Count the flowers of the earth. (3)If you can count them you also will be able to argue the case with me."

    (4)And the prophet said, "Lord, I cannot count them-I bear human flesh-but neither will I stop arguing the case with you. (5)I wish, Lord, to see the lower parts of Tartarus." (6)And God said, "Go down and see!" (7)And he gave me Michael and Gabriel and thirty-four other angels. (8)and I descended eithty-five steps and they led me down five hundred steps.

    Received by Abraham

    4 Maccabees

    13 Now, therefore, if the seven brothers scorned suffering even unto death, it must be universal conceded that the pious reason is complete master of the passions. (2)For if being enslaved to the passions they had eaten unclean food, we would have said that they had been conquered by them. (3)However, in this case it did not happen so, but by the reason which is commended by God they prevailed over the passions, (4)and so we cannot but preceive the mind's supremacy over them since they overcame both passion and sufferings. (5)How then can we fail to admit, in regard to these men, right reason's victory over the passions, seeing that they did not shrink from the pains of fire? (6)Even as towers at the entrance to harbors repulse the threatening onslaughts of the waves and provide a calm haven for those who sail into it. (7)so the seven-towered right reason of the youths forified the have of piety and tamed the rugged license of the passions. (8)They formed a hol choir of piety as they encouraged each other with the words, (9)"Let us die like brothers all, brothers, for the Law's sake. Let us follow the example of the three youths in Assyria, who despised the same trial by ordeal in the furnace. Let us not be pusillanimous in the demonstration of true piety." (10,11)"Courage, brother!" said one, and another, "Hold on nobly!" (12)And another, recalling the past, said, "Remember whence you came and at the hand of what father Isaac gave himself to be sacrificed for piety's sake." (13)Each one severally and all together, looking at each other with most cheerful mien, aglow with courage, said, "With all our hearts let us consecrate ourselves unto God, who gave us our souls, and let us expend our bodies for the custodianship of the Law. (14)Let us have no fear of him who thinks he kills. (15)Great is the ordeal and peril of the soul that lies in wait in eternal torment for those who transgress the commandment of God. (16)Let us then arm ourselves with the control over the passions which comes from divine reason. (17)After our death in this fashion Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will receive us, and all our forefathers will praise us." (18)And to each one of the brothers as they were dragged away, those who were left said, "Do not shame us, brother, nor be traitor to our brothers who have already died."

    2 Esdras 7

    (26)'Listen! The time shall come when the signs I have foretold will be seen; the city which is now invisible shall appear and the country now concealed be made visible. (27)Everyone who has been delivered from the evils I have foretold shall see for himself my marvellous acts. (28)My son the Messiah shall appear with his companions and bring four hundred years of happiness to all who survive. (29)At the end of that time, my son the Messiah shall die, and so shall all mankind who draw breath. (30)Then the wrold shall return to its origninal silence for seven days as at the beginning of creation, and no one shall be left alive. (31)After seven days the age which is not yet awake shall be roused and the age which is corruptible shall die. (32)The earth shall give up those who sleep in it, and the dust those who rest there in silence; and the storehouses shall give back the souls entrusted to them. (33)Then the Most High shall be seen on the judgement-seat, and there shall be an end of all pity and patience. (34)Judgement alone shall remain; (35)truth shall stand firm and faithfulness be strong; requital shall at once begin and open payment be made; good deeds shall awake and wicked deeds shall not be allowed to sleep. (36)Then the place of torment shall appear, and over against it the place of rest; the furnace of hell shall be displayed, and on the opposite side the paradise of delight.

    pseudo

    Footnotes:

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    (1)

    Jewish Martyrs believed that: "After our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us"

    (4 Maccabees 13:17 in J.H. Charlesworth, The OT Pseudepigrapha, Doubleday, 1983).

    (2)

    "You have escaped from the abyss and Hades, you will now cross over the crossing place... then he ran to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David"

    (Apocalypse of Zephaniah 9:2. Charlesworth, op. cit.).

    (3)

    Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the conduct of reason; and what that prescribes to them as good for them, they do; and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason's dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years; nor are they so bold as to contradict them in anything which they have introduced; and, when they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament, whereby what he wills is done, but so that the will of men can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; on account of which doctrines, they are able greatly to presuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they do about divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction; insomuch that the cities gave great attestations to them on account of their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also.

    (The Antiquities of the Jews Book 18, Chapter 1)

    (4)

    4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;

    (2 Peter 2:4 (NRSV))

    (5)

    Jude 1:6

    6 And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

    Jude 1:6-7 (NRSV)

    (6)

    Tartarus:

    In yet one other passage in the New Testament (2Pet 2:4), "to cast down to hell" is used (the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) to represent the Greek [tartaroo], ("to send into Tartarus"). Here it stands for the place of punishment of the fallen angels: "spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits (or chains) of darkness" (compare Jude 1:6; but also Mt 25:41). Similar ideas are found in certain of the Jewish apocalyptic books (Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, Apocrypha Baruch, with apparent reference to Gen 6:1-4; compare

    ESCHATOLOGY, OF THE OT)

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Narkissos..I was reading recently that Ecclesiastes was a very late work (c150BC)likely from the Sadduccean camp, as you observed.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I just found this dating sight, it dates Ecclesiastes to 200 BC. I see areas that I would differ but this is a reasonable attempt to present the best estimates.




    OLD TESTAMENT
    The key period in the development of the Bible is from 586 BCE to 538 BCE. This is the time of Hebrew captivity and exile, by the conquering Babylonians. Prior to this period, the Hebrew religion followed a slow, gradual evolution from its roots in African tribalism, to a more sophisticated form that was strongly influenced by Hinduism.
    During the exile, the books began to take on a pessimistic tone, due to a feeling that Yahweh had abandoned them. After King Cyrus of Persia defeated the Babylonians, and gave the Israelites their freedom; Persian beliefs caused a profound change in the religion. Whereas evil had previously come from Yahweh, the post-exile period adopted a personification of evil, to mirror the Persian duality doctrine. Until the end of the exile, the Hebrew religion had always been polytheistic, but the introduction of Persian Zoroastrian monotheism began a shift toward the concept of one god.
    The list of books to be included in the Old Testament was finalized around 100 BCE.
    Genesis - Compilation written, by various contributers, during the period covering 900 BCE - 400 BCE; drawing on an oral tradition that may date back to 1100 BCE, or earlier.
    Exodus - Around 550 BCE.
    Leviticus - During the 400's BCE; but an earlier version likely existed in the 600's.
    Numbers - During the 500's BCE.
    Deuteronomy - During the 600's BCE.
    Joshua - Original source material from the mid 900's BCE; rewritten in the 600's BCE, and again around 500 BCE.
    Judges - Most written between 500 BCE - 600 BCE; chapters 17 - 21 were added some time between 500 and 200 BCE, while chapter 5 may date back to the 10th century BCE.
    Ruth - Written sometime during the period 400 BCE - 250 BCE; likely based on an older folktale.
    1 Samuel / 2 Samuel - Originally one book. Compiled of material written during two, or possibly three, periods: the oldest from 961 BCE - 922 BCE, most recent from 750 BCE - 650 BCE, and a possible third source from the period in between.
    1 Kings / 2 Kings - Originally one book. Compiled from the work of two unknown authors, one from around 609 BCE, the other from 550 BCE. The writers drew from earlier works of the Bible, and other Hebrew text.
    1 Chronicles / 2 Chronicles / Ezra / Nehemiah - Originally one book written by an unknown author in 300 BCE.
    Esther - Standard version from the 100's BCE; Greek additions in the Catholic version added just prior to the Common Era.
    Job - Folktale written between 500 BCE and 250 BCE; with chapters 32 to 37 added more recently.
    Psalms - A diverse collection spanning a period from as early as 1300 BCE, to 500 BCE.
    Proverbs - A collection of short moral sayings compiled by a number of authors in the 5th or 4th century BCE. Some of the sayings are likely oral traditions that are considerably older.








    Isaiah - Three separate works: 1 Isaiah (1-39) 742 BCE - 700 BCE, 2 Isaiah (40-59) 539 BCE, 3 Isaiah (56-66) shortly after the end of the exile in 538 BCE.
    Jeremiah - Most of the original material was written by Jeremiah between 609 - 580 BCE, but the work was a very late compilation by others: hence the substantial differences between the Hebrew and Greek versions.
    Lamentations - From the Exile period (586 - 538 BCE). Chapters 1-4 are by the same unknown author; with Chapter 5 likely by a second person.
    Ezekiel - Much of the work was by Ezekiel 597 - 571 BCE, with the last part of the book compiled after his death.
    Daniel - Anonymous author from around 150 BCE.
    Hosea - Much of the work is likely written by Hosea in the 8th century BCE, with later additions by Jewish editors.
    Joel - From 537 - 500 BCE.
    Amos - Most written by Amos in the 700's BCE, with chapter 9, verses 9 - 15 added considerably later.
    Obadiah - Written in the post-exile period. There is some debate as to whether it is a compilation, or the work of Obadiah alone.
    Jonah - Post-exile parable, by an unknown author.
    Micah - Parts written by Micah, prior to 721 BCE; other parts written by unknown authors during, and after the exile. Most of the first 3 chapters were added relatively recently.
    Nahum - 663 BCE - 612 BCE.
    Habakkuk - Chapters 1 and 2 from 597 BCE, chapter 3 by a later unknown author.
    Zephaniah - Most written between 640 and 609 BCE. Chapter 3, verses 14 - 20 added considerably later.
    Haggai - 520 BCE. Possibly by Haggai; but more likely by one of his disciples.
    Zechariah - Chapters 1 - 8 from 518 BCE. 9 - 14 possibly around 400 BCE.
    Malachi - 460 - 450 BCE.
    NEW TESTAMENT
    The final list of books for the New Testament was settled, for the most part, in 367 CE; although Revelation was disputed until almost 600 CE. The New Testament Canon settled on four gospels, out of the fifty that were available.
    Matthew - By St. Matthew 70 - 90 CE.
    Mark - By St. Mark 70 - 90 CE.
    Luke - Possibly by St. Luke 70 - 90 CE.
    John - By either St. John, John the Elder, or an unknown author 70 - 90 CE.
    Acts - Possibly by St. Luke 70 - 90 CE.
    Romans - St. Paul 58 CE.
    1 Corinthians - St. Paul 54 CE.
    2 Corinthians - St. Paul 55 CE.
    Galatians - St. Paul 54 CE.
    Ephesians - Possibly by St. Paul 60 CE; if not, 60 - 92 CE.
    Philippians - St. Paul 61 - 65 CE.
    Colossians - St. Paul 55 - 63 CE.
    1 Thessalonians - St. Paul 50 CE.
    2 Thessalonians - Possibly St. Paul 50 CE.
    1 Timothy / 2 Timothy / Titus - Unknown author from the late 1st century CE (were originally attributed to St. Paul).
    Philemon - St. Paul 56 - 65 CE.
    Hebrews - Unknown author 60 - 90 CE (originally attributed to St. Paul)
    James - Unknown author 70 - 132 CE.
    1 Peter - Possibly St. Peter 64 - 65 CE; or an unknown author 96 CE.
    2 Peter - Unknown author around 150 CE.
    1 John / 2 John / 3 John - Either St. John, John the Elder, or an unknown author 90 - 110 CE.
    Jude - 70 - 100 CE.
    Revelation - Either John Mark, John the Elder, or an unknown John 81 - 96 CE

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    There are, in fact, only 3 occurrences of the word in the N.T.: Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:4; Revelation 2:7. In 2 Corinthians the "paradise" is identified to the "third heaven" (v. 2), which corresponds to the Greek Apocalypse of Baruch (which is probably a bit later but independent).]

    Narkissos

    The word heaven simply stands for government and in this case government over mankind. Thus the Kingdom of the Heavens (Jewish version of the expression) is nothing more than the Kingdom of God (Gentile version of the expression). But this Kingdom is also the third heaven that Paul envisioned since this will be the third kingdom over mankind when it is up and running in the future. Paul had a look at this future heaven but was not permitted to describe instructions that would be given then. Up until now mankind has been under the Law covenant. It has also been under the Kingdoms of this world as in Col 1:16 and Romans 13:1-4. This makes up the two heavens we have lived under so far. When the promised Kingdom becomes literal it will then be the third heaven over mankind here on earth and concerning this heaven we have: 2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

    Joseph

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