I think I will have to disagree with Joseph as well. The NT is very clear that there is NOTHING that a person can do to earn salvation. Salvation is given to anyone who will accept Jesus as their savior and accept him into their hearts. While it is good to live a very good life this will NOT earn salvation. The scriptures point out clearly that there is no WORK that we can do to earn salvation, that includes doing ANYTHING that people think will get them into heaven. It is a gift given freely by the Lord and NOTHING can earn it. Paul says that, other than faith in Jesus for salvation, if anyone adds anything else you are accursed of God. Gal 1:8,9. It is also said that the only works a man could do to earn his salvation would be to live life according to the Mosaic Law and never sin once while doing it. That would be the ONLY way to earn salvation. Since that is impossible for us to do Jesus did it for us and bought our sin from us. All we have to do is to accept him and have faith. Anything else that anyone wants to add to this is accursed. If anyone says that not only do you have to have BUT you have to do.....whatever....is accursed from God.
Jesus and the two criminals dying beside him.....
by sandy 78 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
Crinklestein: You wrote: "The NT is very clear that... The scriptures point out clearly... Paul says... It is also said..."
Setting aside Paul's glasses for a moment you could perhaps find many different lines of thinking in the N.T. Why not give it a try with Matthew's Gospel or the Epistle of James?
Peacefulpete: interesting remark about Maimonides. My guess is that in the early Hasidean thinking which is at the root of the Essene and Pharisee movements resurrection and immortality of the soul were not seen as contradictory. Perhaps even only two ways of expressing the same fundamental belief.
Btw, what is the PE book? (I've been out for 18 years...)
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peacefulpete
You can Live Forever on a Paradise Earth...PE
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JosephMalik
Crinklestein said: I think I will have to disagree with Joseph as well. The NT is very clear that there is NOTHING that a person can do to earn salvation. Salvation is given to anyone who will accept Jesus as their savior and accept him into their hearts.
Crinklestein,
Nonsense. Texts that compared works of Law to the Grace that is imparted to us under NT rules have simply been taken out of context to form the doctrine you state here. It has already been shown that our Lord will select His sheep based upon their conduct towards others and it will not be based upon such Law. Our works do matter and in this regard we have:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. {alone: Gr. by itself}
James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. {without: some copies read, by}
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {Seest?: or, Thou seest}
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. {spirit: or, breath}
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan?s seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
Revelation 2:19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.
Joseph
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JosephMalik
Joseph: I think I disagree with just about everything you've written in this thread!!!!
Little Toe,
This is your problem not mine. Nothing you have said proves your point in this thread.
Joseph
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LittleToe
No problem here - I'm just registering my disagreement with your doctrine
Works are the spontanious reaction to the new life imparted by faith.
They proceed from faith and "hope of salvation", rather than precede it. -
JosephMalik
Works are the spontanious reaction to the new life imparted by faith.
Littletoe,
You missed the point completely and your statement is false regardless. I am not even concerned about believers. It has already been shown that works apart from faith will become the basis for judgement for most. This is what Christ taught. The majority may know nothing of Christ the Bible or anything of that sort. They will have come from remote places and/or times where such information was not available. They may even believe in nature as their God(s). Yet such people will get their salvation based upon how they treat others. It is that simple.
Joseph
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LittleToe
I still disagree, as is my wont
So I take it you disagree with Paul's statements regarding salvation, then?
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crinklestein
So, since salvation is based on works, and without works faith would not be enough to be saved....then what's the deal with the theif on the cross next to Jesus? What good works did he perform? Or was it simply that he expressed faith and that's all it took to save him?
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crinklestein
I'm not going to debate and I don't feel the need to prove anything. I agree that works are what would come naturally when one accepts Jesus but works are certainly not required because, if works were all it took then Jesus' death would be worthless. To say that faith in Jesus' death for our sins is NOT ENOUGH TO SAVE YOU is rediculous! That would be nullifying his death. To say that there is something that you can do that will EARN you your salvation is to say that Jesus died for nothing. Because if we could EARN our salvation why do we need Jesus? You would be placing more value on your works than on Jesus' death. Do you want to be so lofty as to say that your works are more valuable than Jesus' sacrifice? Either his death saves you or it doesn't. But you are free to believe the WTS nonsense as much as you would like. I'm not debating this anymore. Enjoy the meetings.