Jesus and the two criminals dying beside him.....

by sandy 78 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Narkissos

  Eisenstein:

  In John 19:31ff it is the contrary: "Since it was the day of Preparation, the Jews did not want the bodies left on the cross during the sabbath, especially because that sabbath was a day of great solemnity. So they asked Pilate to have the legs of the crucified men broken and the bodies removed. Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear, and at once blood and water came out."

  This story may be building on the mysterious detail in Mark 15:44: "Then Pilate wondered if he were already dead; and summoning the centurion, he asked him whether he had been dead for some time. When he learned from the centurion that he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph."
• 

  eisenstein

  You're right Narkissos, I just opened my NWT and read the account...Thanks
• 

  Leolaia

  pseudoxristos....I very much liked your post on deuterocanonical sources on Jewish ideas on Paradise; I wrote a recent post in a similar vein:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63386/973216/post.ashx#973216

  Leolaia
• 

  pseudoxristos

  Leolaia,

  Thanks.

  I took a quick look at your post. It looks like you did a more thorough job then I did. I really liked what I've seen so far. I will look at it again tomorrow when I have more time. Do you mind if I plagiarize some of your material?

  pseudo
• 

  Leolaia

  Not at all....
• 

  JosephMalik

  Littletoe,

  Passages such as this were already mentioned but not discussed in detail. The works in question have nothing to do with works in general upon which judgment is based. Paul is dealing with works of Law and those still depending upon them for salvation. It was a major part of Paul?s ministry to deal with such works of Law that were being forced upon Gentile believers as well as Jewish converts to Christianity. So Paul after a lengthy introduction to such Gentile converts said:

  :8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  Paul now continued to drive this point home not only to such Uncircumcised believers but to believing Jews when he said:

  :11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

  The grace under discussion is of itself not without works. It took a major effort or works if you will on the part of the Logos to make such grace applicable upon all mankind (uncircumcised included). And this grace must be imparted to us by Him. We must be chosen as sheep by him to enter His kingdom, a fact that few acknowledge. We cannot just do things that seem appropriate to gain it; such as performing miracles in His name or seem pious to the world. Judgment therefore boils down to what we really are based upon how we have lived our lives and not by what we pretend to be and is made possible by the blood of Christ. For we know this:

  Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

  All such just and unjust are sheep. Goats will not be part of this Kingdom being the seed of the serpent (not of the living). This is what the Kingdom is all about and the reason why a period of time called the millennium must pass before any further test of mankind will take place. Humanity will then be turned back to God apart from the need for a mediator to plead for it.

  Joseph
• 

  LittleToe

  Joseph:

  It all sounds so very JW...
  ..We work our socks off, in the possibly vain hope that in the final analysis Christ will judge us as worthy of receiving grace.

  We must be chosen as sheep by him to enter His kingdom, a fact that few acknowledge. We cannot just do things that seem appropriate to gain it; such as performing miracles in His name or seem pious to the world.

  This sounds like the Calvinist doctrine of election.

  Judgment therefore boils down to what we really are based upon how we have lived our lives and not by what we pretend to be and is made possible by the blood of Christ.

  But this bit sounds like Arminian works-based salvation.

  So Jesus judges us and chooses us, ensure than none of the serpents seed survives, but somehow over the course of a thousand years some of the serpents seed reappears, so that we can all undergo "another" test?
• 

  crinklestein

  Then, with all of these scriptures that you quote and all of your reasonings on work being the only thing that will save us then you have failed to explain what the purpose of Jesus actually dying was if his death doesn't save us, only our works. If his death has never saved us and it's only works then it's funny that no man has ever lived his life by the Mosaic Law completely and fully. If there were any works that we could do to gain salvation it would be living by the Mosaic Law to its fullest. Yet the Bible is clear that no man has ever done that. So that proves that works are pointless since the only work that we could do has never been accomplished successfully. The Mosaic Law was established partially to prove to us that there is NOTHING that man can do to earn his salvation. That the only way we can be saved is through Jesus.

  So if sin seperates us from God and prevents us from having a relationship with Him....and Jesus died for those sins and removed them....that would mean that we now have a relationship with God and we are one with Him...so why the need for other things being added to this? If our sins were removed by his death what else do we need to prove? There is nothing that we could prove to God because is son did all the work for us. We only need to accept that he did this work and that, if it wasn't for him, we would be screwed.

  Romans 3:21-31(NIV)
  21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, [1] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

  Romans 4:1-3 (NIV)
  1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

  Romans 4:13-15 (NIV)
  13 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

  So what is being said here is that, like Abraham, our salvation can not be justified by works because from works comes boasting of works. Only through Abraham's faith that God would do what He said he was going to do did Abraham do what he needed to do. Therefor Abraham's works were only as a result of his faith that God would keep his promise. So faith moved him to do what he needed to do. He did not perform his works to PROVE his faith! His faith moved him to perform his works! And that his works had NO HAND in earning his salvation. Abraham was credited as being righteous not through his works but because "Abraham believed God", aka FAITH! We are to be like Abraham.
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  crinklestein

  The JW's say that they believe that we are all worthy of death because of sin. And that if it wasn't for Jesus dying we would all be dead REGARDLESS OF WHAT WORKS WE PERFORMED. So if before Jesus died we were totally without hope of salvation and that no amount of works would cover the original of Adam then why would ANY AMOUNT OF WORKS help add to our salvation AFTER Jesus died?

  The scriptures I quoted in Romans say that faith alone is what saves us so as to give full credit to God's grace. To say that ANYTHING WE DO helps save ourselves is taking credit away from God and His Grace and giving ourselves credit that we do not deserve.

  When I was in the organization I remember alot of teachings that we are sinful because Adam sinned and that no amount of animal sacrifices could ever atone that sin. It would take an equal sacrifice to cover the original sin. You could sacrifice every animal on the planet and you would not be saved. It wouldn't be enough. And sacrificing a human would not be enough because that human would be a sinner. So nothing you could do would EVER hope to save you. And this was taught at the Kingdom Halls and it is actually true. No. It would take an equal sacrifice to pay back what was lost. It would take the sacrifice of a sinless man to earn back what was lost by a sinful man. And that NOTHING ELSE EVER would help. Only the sacrifice. That came through Jesus. So if there was absolutley nothing we could do to save ourselves before Jesus died...why would there be anything that we could do AFTER Jesus died? To say that anything other than Jesus' death helps add to our salvation is to say that Jesus' death was not enough to pay back Adam's sin. And if it wasn't enough from Jesus then it DEFINITLEY wouldn't be enough from us because we are sinners. Jesus died for our sins to show that our salvation only comes to us from the grace of God and his death is to bring glory to His grace. To say that WE HAD ANY HAND in our own salvation is to take away from what was to glorify God's Grace and be using it to glorify ourselves. We are to share in absolutely none of this glory!
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  crinklestein

  To add to all of this I would also like to add the parable of the Prodigal Son. The Witnesses love this story as do most people because it illustrates God's freely forgiving spirit. But what I would like to point out is at the end of the story the prodigal son returns to the father and begs for forgiviness. The father instantly forgives him, orders his servants to clean him up and to prepare a large feast in honor of his return. This story was told by Jesus and NO WHERE does it show that the prodigal son EVER had to perform any works to earn his forgiveness. He didn't have to rake the leaves, tend to the cattle or crops...NOTHING! What is interesting is that Jesus never points out how the ever-faithful son took his return. He never says if he welcomed him back freely or if he was resentful that his brother lived a life of sin and came back and was given everything back that he threw away. If this was a true story I think the chances of that faithful brother being resentful would be high. How dare he come back here and have everything restored to him when I have been faithful all along and don't get this kind of feast! If this were the case I would have to say that the Witnesses would be like this brother. Faithful at first but growing ever resentful of the FREE GIFT OF LIFE that the Father gives to everyone else while the Witnesses slave away at their work. I think this is what led to their seperationist ways. Because they are jealous of everyone gaining salvation that lived a life of sin but the Witnesses feel they have been ever faithful and don't get any special treatment.