Hello Globetrotter. As has been pointed out, the Witness view of the Bible comes from what they are told to believe by the Society. You could ask them what happened to the generation of 1914? Prior to the mid 90's the Awake! stated it was the Creator's promise that that generation would not pass away before this system was destroyed. If you can get a copy of an Awake! from that time, show them the quote that they have long since removed and ask if it's true God cannot lie what happened to HIS promise?
Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!
by Globetrotter 113 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AnnOMaly
Ok Gadget. Point well taken. Apologies to G'trotter for being a little harsh. However, alarm bells start ringing when these 'controlling' style statements come out. I don't know what his wife's like. She might be nagging him about coming into the troof. She might want out of the marriage too, who knows? But I get the sense there are deep-seated issues between them here that are not really about the WTS. That's all. Could be wrong. Often am.
Not to mention that they have been married all those years, she already had a Witness background when they got together, which will have shaped her outlook on life. He fell in love with that personality. There's just more to it than her religious views.
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garybuss
Globetrotter, Would you rather be right or married to the mother of your children? It sounds like those are your choices. I have never had any living success stories to tell with a confrontational, in your face with the facts as I see them, style. I have had some success with negotiating for living arrangements while leaving religion all the way out as an issue.
I have to evaluate if I am working in the solution or in the problem. Letting Witness apologists in my home to support my mate's bad behaviors would be working in the problem. That's a display of weakness. I would file for divorce, get a restraining order on finances, and sue for custody of the children. If that get's her attention, then I would move to pragmatic counseling with a counselor experienced with cult members. Religion and leaving the cult can't be the issue. Child welfare and family behaviors need to be the issues.
The reason she is inviting the elders into the home is she is operating from a position of strength and she is being rewarded. That needs to be taken away from her. She needs to be rewarded for bad behavior with lots of trouble. Not arguments, that's probably what she wants. She needs some real trouble to deal with. If she chooses to end the marriage rather than negotiate for the marriage, then you are set on the course in the courts to control finances and the custody of the children. If you are not willing to do that, then I think you are probably just trouble and I step over to her side and I advise her to dump you. -
undercover
My little bit of advice: Pick just a couple of things to discuss. Learn all that you can about those couple of things, both the WTS view and opposing views. Know these subjects frontwards and backwards. Discuss these and only these in the discussion. Do not let them change the subject. When they get backed into a corner they will seek a way out by bringing up unrelated issues, issues you may not be as up on. If they back you into a corner on something that you aren't prepared on, then they will feel they have won.
When I had these same type of discussions, I lost count of how many times that I had to steer the conversation back to the topic at hand. Take 607 for instance. They get backed into a corner on that one. They kept trying to bring up something unrelated, leaving that topic unresolved. I had to keep bringing them back to it by saying, "I'm not prepared to talk about other subjects till we resolve this subject".
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AnnOMaly
Garybuss, you're all heart. Restraining orders, court battles over custody, causing her trouble. Yeah that will win her round. Not.
Don't forget that JWs have a persecution complex. All that bad stuff happening? She'll think it's the devil and be even more convinced she and JWs are right. Not forgetting the fetid atmosphere that will develop between the couple that would take years to heal if ever. And the children. OMG the children - they will have to live with the unholy mess the rest of their lives and then they'll pass it to the next generation.
Would you rather be right or married to the mother of your children?
That, I agree, is the bottom line. -
shotgun
Hi globetrotter I've sent you a PM, here is point for others checking your thread.
I've had several elder visits. This is a question which after it was asked caused each and every elder to never mention it again because they cannot answer it. JW's use Luke 21:23 to justify the date 1914 saying that the end of the Gentile times happened in 1914. The verses plainly state that the end of the gentile times happens after the last days and brings the great tribulation to its end.
Then I ask them if individual bible writers put events in order or put them out of sequence so that we could try to fit it together. They usually say they put things in order.Read Luke 21 together from verse 7 to 23
I asked what is the sequence in Luke 21...... last days , Great Tribulation, end of Gentile times they said yes thats right. So I said if The Gentile times ended in 1914 why do we say the last days began after 1914 which is clearly different from the sequence given in Luke and Matthew.
Its also interesting to point out that Russell and Rutherford had both taught that the last days began in 1799, that Christ returned in 1874, that the great tribulation would happen before 1914 and the gentile times would happen in 1914 bringing the destruction to an end. This line of reasoning was not dropped until the late twenties.
Good luck
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Jim_TX
No advice on the Saturday confrontation with the JWs - but if someone is trying to get someone 'out' - the best way to do it may not be to confront them with 'issues', but to take a vacation.
That's right - a vacation. Be sure to go where there are NO KH's - or 5 meetings a week. Make it a 'travelling' vacation. Go see Yosemite, or the Grand Canyon - or some other 'travel to' park. Make it a three or four weeker - the longer the better.
You see... the logic behind this is to get the other person away from the 5 meetings a week brainwashing that they are now exposed to.
Be sure to not allow any JW publications on this vacation, either. Or - if that is not possible - make sure to 'pack' them away... very deeply in the recesses of the vehicle where they are difficult to get to.
The less brainwashing an individual has - the clearer they are able to see things for what they are. After a bit - they may become 'weak' - which translates to 'clearer thinking'. Then - and only then will someone have half-a-chance to get through.
As for the weekend confrontation... The JWs are very crafty - and will not stand still on any issue that you will 'toss' at them. They will keep changing topics when they get cornered on any issue.
Good Luck with that.
Regards,
Jim TX
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blondie
What can I say,
undercover said what I was going to say about keeping it to 1 or 2 topics and not being sidetracked.
My little bit of advice: Pick just a couple of things to discuss. Learn all that you can about those couple of things, both the WTS view and opposing views. Know these subjects frontwards and backwards. Discuss these and only these in the discussion. Do not let them change the subject. When they get backed into a corner they will seek a way out by bringing up unrelated issues, issues you may not be as up on. If they back you into a corner on something that you aren't prepared on, then they will feel they have won.
When I had these same type of discussions, I lost count of how many times that I had to steer the conversation back to the topic at hand.
I agree with Ann about keeping your wife out of this. I notice that you said you have weathered these differences for 14 years and that she is not baptized. These are 2 pluses. She is entitled to her beliefs and words will not change her much. She has to see things in action. Ann said:
There's the problem. You want to 'get her out.' You want to prove to her that it's all nonsense. Although you feel your motives are noble, that kind of pressure will drive you further apart and/or make her more determined to stick to the org. Leave her alone. Respect her views (even though you disagree). Try and figure out the real issues in your marriage and work on those.
Does your marriage really hinge on her seeing the 'truth about the Truth'? Does she really have to see things YOUR way, or the marriage is over? C'mooon! I may have read you all wrong, but it sounds like you want to snap up for yourself the power the WTS appear to have over your wife.
Three things moved me out.
First, the change in the organ transplant policy
up to 1967 okay
1967-1980 not okay (so people died because of the change)
1980-present okay (so people lived because their medical condition happened after 1980)
Do you think God changes his mind like this?
Second, the lack of love in the congregation...many personal experiences and observation of others' treatment. (Words no actions)
Third, the child abuse issue, my own, my siblings, and finally a sister in my congregation all over a 30 year period, no change in how it was handled.
So GT, it is important that people live what the Bible says, talk is pointless if you aren't doing it.
In the past when I was an active JWs, I had some interesting conversations with elders, and even when I "won" I "lost" when their minds weren't open to anything new. There is this mindset that we are right even when we are wrong because we are God's people. I've used to think that way myself. Now it is Pearls Before Swine.
I may discuss one point briefly and leave a question in their mind. That is what someone did with me 12 years ago. It was like the princess and the pea, it keep poking away at me although I wasn't conscious of it. Finally, I had to find that pea, and when I did, I stopped attending.
So GT, my advice is to cancel the debate and kiss your wife and kids and live a good, loving, considerate life. If you'd like to know more, PM me.
Blondie
(BTW, I have seen several non-JW/JW marriages work out well in love and harmony because each person respected the other's beliefs and gave them room)
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acsot
Globe:
I don't think swapping Scripture will help in any way, shape or form, but that's just my opinion. One think you may try is something that JWs probably have not much personal experience with: unconditional love and acceptance. Here are some of JamesThomas' posts:
As time goes on I am sensing that fundamental Christianity is a group mental disorder. People stuck in a severe survival mode were in their fear of death is paramount yet camouflaged behind a screen of koom-by-ya as to numb them to the malevolent nature of their beliefs.
Sadly, there is a group of people that would continue to revere, honor and "love" a god that killed every other man women and child on earth, if it meant saving their own ass.
Like many on this board, my heart will not allow me to identify and embrace such a repugnant creature (concept of God). The is why I am no longer a Witness or harbor beliefs in disgusting little anthropomorphic deities.
If there is such a god that has a need to kill even one human being that others will fear and worship him/it, then let it be me; because I would rather be dead than live within the stink of such a thing.
I am posting them here because if you can get yourself into a space where you feel the way James expresses himself, you are in effect placing yourself on a much higher spiritual level than JWs could ever hope to achieve. And since you're not arguing Scripture they will have nothing to argue against.
How sad that we are "swine" because we do not reduce God down to anthropomorphic deity who will kill you if you do not accept and honor him. Many here have had quite enough of threats of death and destruction by the blood drenched hands of a vengeful human-like god; especially when they can readily find within their own hearts love and compassion far more beautiful than that attributed to the Christian idea of God. They may not even be aware of this contrast. But deeper wisdom often reveals itself via heartfelt pain and sorrow when people come proclaiming "worship my god, accept my god -- or die." (camouflage it any way you like, but this is the core of the Judeo-Christian/Islamic message) On the surface such preaching may seem like love and concern for others, but look deeper and you will find fear of death at the hands of their tyrannical and watchful deity, and greed for heavenly reward (Gentlesoul, was honest enough to admit it when he/she said "It was purely out of concern for my own salvation...that I wrote this post.") Whereas man-made religious beliefs are bound tightly by greed and fear, true-love and Divinity have no relationship to these things at all. Many believers of a tiny vengeful god are fine and kind people. Some have seen beyond the fundamental veils of their religion and embrace deeper understanding. However, the most unconditionally loving, accepting and genuinely kind people I have come across -- have no religions chains at all.
James has written from a more global perspective but you could use this for JWs, i.e. rather than talk about "greed for a heavenly reward" you can mention "earthly paradise", etc.
There is a simple cause for the appearance of what we see here as selfish heartlessness. The price of belittling and reducing God/our Source, down to a conditionally-loving and vindictive anthropomorphic deity, is a numbing of the heart and soul. More pronounced in some religions than others....but the price is paid. Worshipping an idea of God that is conditionally-loving inhibits the flow of unconditional love and kindness. Simply because to be a religious person who is unconditionally loving, places you higher than your god, and this is blasphemous (much of the dynamics of this on a subconscious level). We view reality through the lens of our religion. To expect Judeo-Christian and Islamic peoples to be unconditionally kind and loving is foolish as the nature and foundation of such religions is extremely conditional. If we see it the way it is and understand, then there is no reason to judge these people or be angry with them.
Of course, I'd probably get so pissed at the JWs while trying to speak with them that it would be hard to remain centered and focused on the above. But it's worth a try. -
blindfool
GB
Blondie's advice is some of the best I've ever seen here. The key in my relationship with my JW wife seems to be the fact that we respect each others view's.
I try to live my life in a way that should show my love for God, but I don't feel compelled to join a group just because they say they are God's people. My wife was raised in the JW faith and was babtised about 6 years after we married. I respect her beliefs, and she respects mine.