Witnesses coming Saturday... I need HELP!!!!

by Globetrotter 113 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AnnOMaly

  I will never live this way again.

  GaryB, I understand - nor should you. She sounded unbalanced and cut off from your needs. I see the angle you are coming from.

  I know another couple who were religiously divided when they got married - they were aware of the differences so their eyes were open. It was a challenging marriage to begin with and the husband was very difficult to live with. Years later the wife converted to the JWs. That precipitated years of needling and opposition from the husband. She did acquiesce to many of his demands and chose her 'battles' to keep as much harmony as possible. Yet, she once said that she would not have lasted the distance being a JW had she not had the opposition from her husband. If he had been less rigid in his behavior, she wouldn't have felt the need to fight him, or found comfort and sanctuary at the meetings, and she would have noticed the cracks sooner. That's the angle I'm coming from.

  Globetrotter. Whatever advice you choose to go with, whether your marriage goes belly-up or not, I wish you well, I wish you peace and healthy relationships.
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  Sirona

  Globetrotter,

  I just want to say Good Luck with the meeting, I will be thinking of you. Its tomorrow morning is it?

  I like the argument of Jesus choosing them in 1919 because they have no way around it. Why would Jesus choose them when in 1919 they were indistinguishable from the majority of other christian sects?

  I hope things go ok

  Blessings

  Sirona
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  Globetrotter

  Thanks Sirona. If you are ever over near Wigan, say hello to my buddy Paul.
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  marriedtodamob

  GT...are you still alive and kicking? Dying to know how it went! Fill us in when you can!

  Thinking of you,

  mobbie
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  Globetrotter

  Hi all. Man, things move fast on this board! I had to go back several pages to find this. A couple of people indicated that this thread should be required reading for any non-witness considering romantic involvement with a witness. Having seen other people in similar circumstances, and the outpouring of help and understanding, I certainly agree. So rather than start a new thread, I decided to take up where I left off.

  First, let me thank everyone for all their suggestions and advice. Much of it was put to good use..Yes, the two witnesses came to the house this morning - one younger (my age) and one a bit older. My wife was there, as were my two children. Since my family and I have talked about so many different JW issues in the past, I asked them earlier this morning if they would please let me lead the conversation, that I had a number of specific points I wanted to cover. They agreed. So anyway, after introductions (I had met these two guys before) and 15-20 minutes of pleasantries, we got down to business.

  I wanted to start from the beginning, to establish some very simple baselines. I did this for the benefit of my wife (even though this morning before they came, she told my daughter that the only reason she asked these people over was so I could see the truth about the witnesses and then back off). There is much that she claims just isn't so, yet she refuses to "do the math" so to speak. (so, we'll just all do the math together). The first thing I asked them to do is explain what the main message is that the witnesses preach. The answer? "The kingdom". Well, no surprises there. OK. Moving on, we went through the perfect man in god's image Adam bit, the naked lady talking to the snake, sin being introduced into the world, another perfect life (Jesus) being sacrificed in order to put things back on track for gods purpose, "god had and continues to have, a purpose, and god doesn't lie does he?" ( I deliberately wanted to go through this entire bit specifically to see if I would hear that line, the same line told to me by another witness the first time all this was explained to me. I wasn't left wanting. This confirmed two things to me - a) that this is a canned oration repeated by many, and b) I may be able to use such a meaningful line to my own advantage sometime in future discussions.)

  Next we talked very briefly about other religions. I just knew it was going to happened and in fact was counting on it to come up at this point in the discussion. I wanted them to establish the fact that JWs were different - different from the "Jesus Saves" bumper sticker Baptists so common in the bible belt here in the south, and different from the "everyone dies and goes to heaven" Catholicism in which I was raised. That of course led into the "well, who goes to heaven?" thing, so I listened while they explained to me the 144K anointed class, and the slave class, the resurrected and those who survive Armageddon.

  I have to say that here I just couldn't keep quiet and had to interject that the 144,000 were 12K from the 12 tribes of Israel and men who had not defiled themselves with women (or however your favorite flavor of the bible reads). Hehe, I was immediately referred to the first chapter and verse of Revelation and reminded that it speaks of symbolism and imagery. I agreed that indeed multiple headed beasts with a eleventy-seven bizzilion eyes and mystic numbers (666 referring the number of a man) were absolutely clear evidence of imagery and symbolism, but I also indicated that John was very clear and not ambiguous about the names of the tribes, nor the number. And for that matter, if the names of the tribes were insignificant, seeing that the WTBS now represents spiritual Israel, why couldn't the numbers 12K and 144K also be symbolic?
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  blondie

  And for that matter, if the names of the tribes were insignificant, see that the WTBS now represents spiritual Israel, why couldn't the numbers 12K and 144K also be symbolic?

  Well, GT, you let them dig the hole, and put them on the edge of it. How did they avoid falling in?
  

  Blondie

  Did they dance away like this little guy (pardon me, min)

  w66

  3/15 p. 183

  And with him a hundred and forty-four thousand." This is the number of the associates with Christ in his heavenly rulership, once stated as a number as unknown to man as the stars of heaven and the sands of the seashore, but here revealed. That it is a literal number is shown in Revelation chapter 7, where, after giving the definite number of 144,000, at verse 9 it speaks of another group, a "great crowd" whom no man was able to number. The number 144,000 could not be symbolic, for, if so, it would mean nothing. It might as well have no number at all, for there would be no contrast between it and the later-mentioned "great crowd," which is numberless.

  I always figured it could just be describing the same group of people in a different way. After all, John was never addressing anyone other than Christians who expected to die and be resurrected to rule in heaven with Christ.
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  marriedtodamob

  Hi GT! Glad you posted an update...you have a PM!

  mobster
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  Globetrotter

  I didn?t belabor the points, though. Having established a bible story, a purpose, sin, the ransom, the fact that JWs are different, heaven, paradise earth and who will live where, we have arrived at the anointed. Good.

  How do the anointed 144K know they are anointed? The holy spirit. OK. Stop.

  Now I wanted to know how the JW know they are the truth. They started to tell me about Jehovah?s name, but I told them that was a non-starter for me, plus my kids don?t call me by my first name. I wanted to get a little deeper than that and had to draw it out of them. I prefaced my remarks by saying that I know historically they have come under a lot of fire regarding date setting and the like, and that was not where I was going. But that I did understand that Jesus examined all the religions on the earth from about 1914-1918 and decided that the JW (?what were they called then??, I asked ? ?International Bible Students. They didn?t officially take the JW name until 1935, but it is OK to refer to them as witnesses.? Fine.)?that the JW were the only ones on the planet practicing pure/true worship. ?YES?. And that the JWs were chosen as the faithful and discreet slave, god?s organization on this earth. ?YES?.

  OK, so if I understand correctly, an individual must be a baptized JW in order to have either the heavenly or the earthly hope. ?YES? There are some 8,000 living JW that are anointed? ?YES?. Jehovah using the holy spirit then communicates to his people here on Earth through the anointed, and the anointed interpret the bible and set policy for the flock. ?YES?

  This segued nicely into how all of JWs worldwide are united in worship. So I asked if it was possible for an individual to deviate from what was taught if that person disagreed. This evoked a little discussion, but the bottom line was someone can certainly disagree with a teaching as long as he doesn?t cause trouble or actively promote his point of view. I wanted it made clear that the rank and file congregation member is not allowed to openly debate policy at the KH nor at Shoney?s after the meeting with a few friends. This was confirmed. One may certainly ask a question by writing a letter to NY, and they will have someone come talk to you to explain their position. This does not sound like the ability to openly question and debate. And so I said, that one must believe everything that is taught by the Society. It?s an all or nothing deal. Heads nodded and finally the word was uttered: ?YES?. OK.
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  lisaBObeesa

  *sitting on the edge of my chair*

  I must stay up until I hear the rest of this story!

  I think it is gonna end good! **crossing fingers**
• 

  Globetrotter

  The older one did tell me that they were not infallible and on occasion did make mistakes, but they were corrected.

  Time was running short. Once we got started the discussion lasted about 70 minutes, and the older gentleman had a building committee meeting to go to. I told them I had two last quick points to bring up before they left, and that we could talk about them next time. (In fact when we first started, I told them I had some specific things that I wanted to get on the table today and if time were running short, I would at least inform them of what they were, just so it didn?t look like ?Hey, and what about this, and what about that?.)

  I asked about the YMCA. Could I join to use the gym? The answer was ?NO?, however if I paid for services as I go, that wasn?t the same as a membership. If I had a clear conscience about a pay as you go, if there were no Gold?s Gym around, then it would be OK. A membership however implies support of the organization and the JW just couldn?t really condone that.. (wowwww I thought) OK. THANK YOU.

  Next came the image of the beast. I mentioned that I heard a KH talk about 4-5 years ago, the subject was something like Why We Can Believe the Bible. In that talk, several things were discussed in some detail, like archeological evidence, etc, but there was a short list that was blitzed through A,B,C,?The speaker, in going down the list said something like ?Oh, and of course we all know that the United Nations, formerly the League of Nations is one of the beasts referred to in Revelation?. I told these guys this morning I found that to be amazing. Do they believe that? The older one said ?AH, now were getting into some good stuff!? He was genuinely excited. I thought for a fleeting moment, he was ready for my next move. He wasn?t. We all agreed that the JW vehemently opposes the UN. I even had printed the section from the 1963 Resolution off the CD, and we read it together. It blasts the UN. Everyone was in agreement.

  Then I asked how for 10 years the WTBTS could be a NGO member of the UN. ?HUH?!!?? I said, yes, the UN. I apologized for getting information from the internet, because I know there are apostate lies out there, but everything I showed them was official. I showed them the letter from the UN indicating the 1991 application and 1992 approval of NGO status. The same letter states what NGOs are obligated to do. The letter also confirms the WTBTS withdrew their membership in 2001, so indeed, they are no longer a member. I also showed the copy of the Branch Committee letter issued by the society, talking about the membership, UN library access, and subsequent withdrawal from the UN. Then I showed them straight from the UN website the list of support publications various NGOs had submitted to the UN in partial fulfillment of their membership requirements. There was listed an Awake! Article, which I had printed from the CD. It extolled the virtues of the UN. This was all news to them both, and my wife believes that at least the older one, if not both of them, holds some position at the KH. I actually felt kind of bad.

  In response to the Awake article, he said that no one would deny that certain parts of the UN have done good things for people around the world. I said sure! And no one would deny that advances in medicine have occurred due to the witnesses? stance on blood! I went on to say that, look, if this is true, it would disturb me. They were vehemently opposing the UN from the pulpit at the same time they were members, supporting the UN. If the society says I can?t have a YMCA membership just to use the gym, I surely cannot reconcile how they for 10 years could be officially associated with one of the beasts in Revelation just for a library card. Can you see that???? They both answered yes and asked if they could take the stuff with them. I said sure, absolutely.

  At that point, we were running over time. They were not in great hurry to leave after I dropped the UN on them. I believe they seemed genuinely disturbed. We said our goodbyes and they left. I wonder if their eyes glazed back over when they got in the car, or if they are still awake right now. They both seem to be pretty good people. I?m kinda pulling for them. That?s all I can write tonight. I?m wasted. I?ll give you my wife?s reactions tomorrow.