Did Jesus pray to himself ? (page 5)

hooberus

Re: Hebrews 5:7: in order to claim that Trinitarians believE that Jesus prayed to himself, you need to show that Trinitarians believe that Hebrews 5:7 is referring to all the persons of the Trinity rather than the specific person of the Father.

herk

hooberus,

Trinitarians use Isaiah 9:6 for a reference that Jesus Christ is "Mighty God."

The following is typical of the confusion among trinitarians (clergy and laity) regarding the "Father" of Isaiah 9:6:

Christian Journey is a pro-Trinity church organization in Pensacola, Florida. In their Bible study course on "Undersanding the Trinity," they state: "Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Father is eternal. ... All 3 in the Trinity have always existed and always will exist."

The Travis Avenue Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas, in a published sermon on Isaiah 9:6, 7, states: "v.6 - 'Everlasting Father ...' This points to the providential care of the Father over our lives. Now you may have had an earthly father who didn't care for your needs, but not the Everlasting Heavenly Father. ... Christ is the 'everlasting Father.' You know our earthly fathers will not always be with us. Sometimes they may even fail us. But not our heavenly, everlasting Father, whom we see in the face of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father. However, any reference to Isaiah 9:6 as proof that Jesus is God and that he is everlasting (eternal) requires accepting that verse as proof that Jesus is the Father. But trinitarians want to have their cake and eat it too. Arbitrarily, with no reasonable explanation, they claim Jesus is God because he is called "mighty God" while they deny he is the Father even though he is clearly called "everlasting Father." Devout Jews have traditionally applied this prophecy to Hezekiah who was the agent of God while sitting upon the throne of the Lord in Jerusalem. A grander fulfillment is found in Jesus the Messiah. However, the Jews never read into the prophecy that Hezekiah was Almighty God or, as trinitarians do, that the Messiah is Almighty God.

herk

hooberus,

in order to claim that Trinitarians believE that Jesus prayed to himself, you need to show that Trinitarians believe that Hebrews 5:7 is referring to all the persons of the Trinity rather than the specific person of the Father.

Apparently you don't see my point. Hebrews 5:7 says Jesus prayed to "the One" who was able to help him. Trinitarians claim God is one Almighty God composed of three Persons. All three are equal and should have been able to help Jesus. Thus "the One" who was able to help him was actually three Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. If only God the Father was able to help him, that would indicate clearly that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not equal to him.

herk

gumby

Hooberus. Am I going to have to spank your cute little ass again little MR.?

I've told you this before and you didn't listen to me. Now listen!!

Take 10 people who have never read or been influenced by the bible. Have them read the new testament. Then ask them who they think Jesus is in relation to god. If just ONE person answer jesus is god.........I'd kiss that cute little white arse of yours.........ya big ol' bastard you.

Love, Gumby

herk

gumby

Herk

Gumby

herk

hooberus

Trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father. However, any reference to Isaiah 9:6 as proof that Jesus is God and that he is everlasting (eternal) requires accepting that verse as proof that Jesus is the Father.

The fact that Trinitarians appeal to Isaiah 9:6 to prove that Jesus is God, does not mean that they also interpret the phrase "Everlasting Father" in Isaiah 9:6 to mean the person of the Father, which is what is need in order to claim that Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the person of the Father, or that Jesus "prayed to himself."

Secondly any reference to Isaiah 9:6 as proof that Jesus is God does not also require accepting that verse as proof that Jesus is the person of the Father.

hooberus

The point of this thread is the claim made by (some such as the Watchtower and yourself) that the Trinity actually teaches that Jesus "prayed to himself." In order to claim that Trinitarians believe that Jesus prayed to himself, you need to show that Trinitarians believe that "the one" specifically in Hebrews 5:7 is referring to all the persons of the Trinity rather than the specific person of the Father.

The KJV and the NASV do not even use the phrase "the One" in Hebrews 5:7, but instead use the phrase "him." I believe that most Trinitarians interpret the "him" as the person of the Father. (Even the Trinitarians that use Bibles such as the NIV which has the phrase "the one" in Hebrews 5:7 would probably interpret the phrase "the one" as refering to the specific person of the Father.)

Apparently you don't see my point. Hebrews 5:7 says Jesus prayed to "the One" who was able to help him. Trinitarians claim God is one Almighty God composed of three Persons. All three are equal and should have been able to help Jesus. Thus "the One" who was able to help him was actually three Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. If only God the Father was able to help him, that would indicate clearly that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not equal to him.

You have also attempted to make a point from Hebrews 5:7 (see above) that Jesus and the Spirit are not equal to the Father. However this this not the main subject of this thread.

hooberus

One of the illustrations that you posted indicates that Trinitarians interpret "the One" in Hebrews 5:7 to refers to the Father alone, yet another illustration presents Trinitarians as believeing in four persons in the Trinity by showing a diagram of "the One" that Jesus prays to in Hebrews 5:7 being all three members of the Trinity.

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

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