Another possibitity is that in light of the fact that the prayer was to be recorded by the gospel writers, Jesus was simply overheard rehersing the prayer.
***** Rub a Dub
Did Jesus pray to himself ?
by hooberus 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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stillajwexelder
Hooberus said . The diagram that herk pasted is inaccurate, in that it presents the Trinity as being composed of four persons instead of three. The diagram presents the two natures of Christ as different persons when in reality Christ is one person with two natures (not two different persons). Herk -- I loved your diagram -- brilliant Just to reinforce what you already know I FU----G HATE the Trinity with a passion
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logansrun
All together now.....
"It's all bullshit!"
Bradley
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Phantom Stranger
And a one, and a two...
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herk
hooberus,
The diagram that herk pasted is inaccurate, in that it presents the Trinity as being composed of four persons instead of three. The diagram presents the two natures of Christ as different persons when in reality Christ is one person with two natures (not two different persons).
There is nothing inaccurate about my diagram. Trinitarians believe that Jesus prayed to himself and to the other two members of the Trinity. The other two members are described by trinitarians as Persons within the Trinity. According to them, Jesus also is such a Person within the Trinity. If he prayed as a human person to his corresponding divine Person, the picture is of one person praying to another Person. Prayer is communication from a human person to a divine Person, not a communication within the mind or "natures" of one person. This is one of the big problems trinitarians present that hinders acceptance of their theory. They have their own vocabulary which is very different from the vocabulary of standard dictionaries. There is no such thing as "prayer" from one nature to another nature. A nature does not pray, but persons do. Thus it is inaccurate to say that Christ's human nature prayed to his divine nature. But it is perfectly correct to say that Christ as a human person prayed to a divine Person. Trinitarians misunderstand the meaning of "nature." Christ is not the Almighty God simply because of his "divine nature." Otherwise, faithful Christians will also share in the Godhead since that is the nature they are promised: "He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) herk
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Narkissos
An interesting, or funny, byzantine detail: according to classical trinitarian theology, Jesus is not a human person (persona, hypostasis). His human nature is said to be anhypostatic (literally, unpersonal), or borne as it were by the enhypostatic logos (identified to the divine Person). This is very nice, as Greek theology in general (try also perichoresis -- the mutual immanence of the trinity persons -- sometime); Karl Barth has wonderful pages on this doctrine in his Kirkliche Dogmatik. But through such a prism the Markan Jesus, for instance, becomes quite meaningless (you have to postulate the divine person yields a lot to the human nature, or is always pretending...)
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hooberus
There is nothing inaccurate about my diagram. Trinitarians believe that Jesus prayed to himself and to the other two members of the Trinity. The other two members are described by trinitarians as Persons within the Trinity. According to them, Jesus also is such a Person within the Trinity. If he prayed as a human person to his corresponding divine Person, the picture is of one person praying to another Person. Prayer is communication from a human person to a divine Person, not a communication within the mind or "natures" of one person. This is one of the big problems trinitarians present that hinders acceptance of their theory. They have their own vocabulary which is very different from the vocabulary of standard dictionaries. There is no such thing as "prayer" from one nature to another nature. A nature does not pray, but persons do. Thus it is inaccurate to say that Christ's human nature prayed to his divine nature. But it is perfectly correct to say that Christ as a human person prayed to a divine Person.
Herk, can you please show me where in the various Trinity creeds that it is said that Jesus Christ prayed to all three persons of the Trinity, or that His "human nature prayed to his divine nature"? I don't think that most Trinitarians believe these things. Though Trinitarians believe that Jesus has two natures, it is another thing to claim that Trinitarians also believe that his "human nature prayed to his divine nature." I think that most Trinitarians would say that the person Jesus Christ prayed to the person of the Father. One person to another person.
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herk
hooberus,
I think that most Trinitarians would say that the person Jesus Christ prayed to the person of the Father. One person to another person.
Trinitarians often use Isaiah 9:6 to prove that Jesus is God since it says "unto us a son is given" and he is to be "Everlasting Father." They also use John 10:30 to prove their point that Jesus and the Father are "one," not two. Philip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father in John 14:7-10. Jesus told Philip, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" Again, trinitarians use this text to show that seeing Jesus is the same as seeing the Father, and that seeing the Father as God is to see Jesus as God. At Matthew 5:45 and 19:4-6, Jesus gave credit for creation to the Father, but trinitarians use Colossians 1:16 to prove that Christ is creator of the universe, even though that is not what the text actually says.
Trinitarians do not hesitate to use these texts to prove that Jesus is God, even though the texts do not prove such an idea. But if the Trinity were true, and if these texts are to be taken at face value with that in mind, then they prove, not that Jesus is "God the Son" but that he is "God the Father." Thus it is not inconsistent with trinitarian teaching to say that Jesus prayed to himself. Interestingly, Hebrews 5:7 states: "In the days of his flesh, he [Christ] offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his piety." This text poses two problems for trinitarians: (1) If Christ prayed only to the person of the Father within the Trinity, why is it said that only the Father was "able to save him from death"? Why were "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" unable to save him? (2) If the three Person God is really "One" God as trinitarians claim, then "the One" to whom Christ prayed was actually all three Persons, not just God the Father. herk -
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hooberus
Trinitarians often use Isaiah 9:6 to prove that Jesus is God since it says "unto us a son is given" and he is to be "Everlasting Father."
Trinitarians use Isaiah 9:6 for a reference that Jesus Christ is "Mighty God." Trinitarians do not use Isaiah 9:6 to try to prove that Jesus is the person of Father (this is what modalists do). Trinitarians do not teach that the phrase "Everlasing Father" means that Jesus is the same person as the Father.
They also use John 10:30 to prove their point that Jesus and the Father are "one," not two.
Trinitarians do not use John 10:30 to prove that Jesus and the Father are the same person (this is what modalists do), but to prove that they are one in substance (ie: one God).