God does exist...

by czarofmischief 348 Replies latest jw friends

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Can the diety be proven by a "cause and effect" standard? Is the diety limited to human conception of cause and effect, or to individual levels of justice and equity? Personally I believe we are provided with all the wonders of creation that will give us a wonderful and prosperous life. That we chose to kill each other, abuse each other, or any other of a thousand ways of proving we can be lower than animals, is not evidence that we don't have a loving God. Nor are natural dissasters or the changes and chances of this material reality any reason to think a diety doesn't exist. I will admit that different people have diffent esperiances with prayer. All I can say is that it has not been a consistent and logical experiance nor one that I can use as a means of "proof". Other evidences in the physical world suggest to me the existence of a metaphysical world.

    camel

  • Mr. Kim
    Mr. Kim

    Good original post Czar!

  • bisous
    bisous

    czar, could it be that your prayers allowed you to focus on what you needed to happen in your life at that time and thus helped influence them be so?

    Sorry, but I think if prayers were answered in the way your examples portray....then what would be the logic or fairness ? Someone else used the example of the prayers of powerless abused children ... also we have the prayers of a murderer's victim, a rapist's subject, those who live in wartorn countries whose families are decimated...all the suffering people on earth.

    I am glad that prayer has had such a positive influence on your family and your being....but I think it can be likened to meditation's positive results and not proof that God answers human's prayers. Does God exist for an individual's benefit? or as a force that causes the universe to be sustained???

    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? don't ask me, I'm just a little woman....

    lol

  • Golf
    Golf

    Czar, interesting post. Glad to hear things are working out for you and the Mrs. Personally, I'm under NO obligation to prove to any fellow human if a Creator exists.

    My life and future doesn't hinge on what other people think of me. Like you, I believe in prayer. My prayers to my Creator are always thankful prayers. I don't consider all my prayers as prayers but rather a heart felt talk between a father and a son. I believe that the Creator gave us tools to make our lives comfortable even under adverse conditions. One of these tools is common sense. I thank him for these tools. How many people are thankful by nature? And to whom do they give thanks to, themselves?

    For those who don't believe in a Creator, that's not my problem and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. We all have choices. If people believe only in themselves, so be it. Back to work with my tools.

    Guest 77

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Thanks for all of your comments. Most have been supportive, except 6of9, of course... LOL! What would I do without him? I intentionally dropped the letter and then ran away so as to avoid having to deal with the response, but it seemed to be very nice overall.

    The only response I can make to issues like the prayers of an abused child is this: First, that's a hypothetical example and assumes no response - ergo it proves nothing about prayer.

    Sorry, but I think if prayers were answered in the way your examples portray....then what would be the logic or fairness ? Someone else used the example of the prayers of powerless abused children ... also we have the prayers of a murderer's victim, a rapist's subject, those who live in wartorn countries whose families are decimated...all the suffering people on earth.

    People are free to be cruel to each other. However, it is my experience and belief that those who pray will be given what they really need, as opposed to what they think they want. That's why I used the example of the JC meeting - I was powerless, and humiliated, but by praying that I would get the best out of it, I am now a stronger, kinder individual than I was before. Much less dogmatic on nonessentials, for instance.

    Not that my experience rivals being abused - but prayer can help turn even that extremely negative circumstance into something that will help you make a better world. Try it, bisous. It's not a thing I can really explain, but if you asked God for help in dealing with your past and turning it into something that can help you become a better person, I know you will get an answer.

    As for your complaint about fair, well, how much of that is God's fault? Most of the inequities in the world are the result of human greed, not human incompetence or natural disaster. Over half the population of the world is dependent on an economic equivalent of one dollar a day - is that fair, or God's fault? No, it seems to be the result of the international monetary system that exchanges currencies at rates that tend to flow the dollars back to Britain and America.

    But if somehow I were among those 3 billion people, I know that my prayers would be answered in some fashion - whether food for that day, or the strength to endure hunger, or the power to revolt against my government... or even the ability to die - sometimes that's the way out, and when you believe in life after death, it doesn't seem so bad.

    God is a person, I believe, precisely because he is so unpredictable. You can't pray for something and guarantee that you'll get it, nor could you ask your dad for something and get it all the time.

    For those who don't believe in a Creator, that's not my problem and I'm not going to lose sleep over it. We all have choices. If people believe only in themselves, so be it. Back to work with my tools.

    No, no real responsibility on my part to prove anything, but I have no desire to just walk away either. So, I laid my soul bare.

    CZAR

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Thanks for posting that Czar, it is an interesting point of view. I see things differently, but I do agree that God is experienced by the individual and we don't need a "church" or mediator to do it for us.

    Also I find your views on "why things happen" refreshing. Too many believers blame a satan or some other force for the bad things that happen, or they expect that as humans we should suppress our desires - our humanity.

    Sirona

  • Golf
    Golf

    Yes Czar, everyone has choices, if you feel that you have no desire to walk away, that's an example of your choice.

    I've met and talked to people who don't believe in God, these people don't make an issue out of it and neither do they say one is foolish and stupid to believe in God. They maintain a respectful and courteous attitude. Surprisingly, I've had some interesting and wholesome conversations with them. Others who don't display such an attitude, I just excuse myself. Life is a two way street.

    Guest 77

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    You know, I originally posted a smartass response in an escalation of our online disagreements, Czar. But, I don't think that that is necessarily the right thing to do. You and your family have been through a lot and you've made progress in life. Although there are logical holes in your line of reasoning your conclusion cannot necessarily be discounted. Perhaps there is a "hidden god" in the day to day contingencies of our existence. In the spirit of William James, if belief in God helps you, who am I to take that belief away?

    B.

    (Still, it's not "proof" )

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine
    But if somehow I were among those 3 billion people, I know that my prayers would be answered in some fashion - whether food for that day, or the strength to endure hunger, or the power to revolt against my government... or even the ability to die - sometimes that's the way out, and when you believe in life after death, it doesn't seem so bad.
    I am now a stronger, kinder individual than I was before.

    Yeah, you're a real sweetheart. You've progressed exactly one inch past those elders.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    One inch is better than your 6 feet behind them! At least some elders talk to others with respect.

    Sirona

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit