God does exist...

by czarofmischief 348 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  czarofmischief

  Logan,

  I appreciate your point. Which is mine, exactly. I will check out these books.

  All I can say in response is this: I know that my proofs will not convince a committed secularist. Nor do I want them to. But I was asked to provide my proof for God's existence. Since all experience is subjective, just about everything can be explained as being something else. In fact, our process of knowledge acquisition requires that we have bad ideas and then get better ones as our observational powers improve.

  But, my main point is that God is personal. My secondary point is that his influence is undetectable unless you are expecting it.

  So, let me reverse the challenge, then. What would it take to prove God's existence to you? Is there anything you can think of that you wouldn't trim into your current secular viewpoint?

  CZAR
• 

  SixofNine

  The purpose of this thread was not to discuss whether human cruelty disproves God's existence. It was to analyze whether God got involved in my own personal life and helped me. It's my thread, and if the topic doesn't please you, go drool your nihilist / unbelieving / chaotic grunge generation rhetoric elsewhere.

  Get this thru your self-centered sharply pointed head, Czar: it isn't your thread. And as it is a discussion on the existance and nature of god, to wit: does he/she/it get involved in Czar's personal life to the extent he provides a good bankruptcy law finders service, etc. my points about abused children are not only relevant, but you couldn't have even a semblance of a deep discussion about such matters without talking about the suffering of abused (both by people and circumstance) little children.

  If you can't understand that, then you're too shallow to be waxing on about god.

  I'm not unsympathetic to your trials, either Czar. I've been in similar circumstances, and I would never belittle what it takes to come out on top them, especially deep depression. But that doesn't mean that there will ever be a time when a little perspective is not beneficial, and you need a truck load of perspective right now.
• 

  czarofmischief

  Get this thru your self-centered sharply pointed head, Czar

  HEY! My head has MANY sharp points!

  Of course it's self centered - it's MY proof of a personal God, which would be PERSONAL.

  Fine. Let's talk about abused children. In fact, let's remove God completely from the equation. Let's pretend he doesn't care about anybody, and that I solved my problems completely on my own. There. We've also removed Czar from his own thread. Czar was just lucky, overcame the odds, just thought that he found God. After all, if god cares, he'd do something about these abused children, wouldn't he?

  So god doesn't care. But since He doesn't, guess what, why should I? If God isn't going to help these kids, why should I bother? Why should I even bother to help my own kids? By removing God from my life, you aren't making me less self-centered. You are making me even MORE self-centered.

  Some kids suffer and some kids are happy and rich. I intend to be happy, therefore, I should pursue money and, incidentally, if hitting kids helps relieve stress at the end of my big money making day, why shouldn't I? There are no consequences, in fact, let's just legalize it since it happens all the time anyway and I don't feel like spending tax money prosecuting that kind of thing.

  Your worldview insists that I dismiss God just because other people suffer. But your worldview is NOT going to make things easier. It's not going to make me want to be a better person. Instead of viewing human suffering as a challenge to overcome in the name of God, I would much rather be cannibalizing and torturing, because I would think it's funny as hell.

  So, maybe, God saw the monster I could become and STOPPED me... maybe god DID save some children, and if he did, how would you know? Think Im exaggerating? Hm, let's go over my profile, shall we? White, male, mid twenties, intelligent, educated, underemployed, bipolar disorder, history of psychiatric medications and hospitilizations, temper control issues, alienation from society, slightly dysfunctional grouping, raised in a cult and educated in public speaking, access to affluence. I could be the next Dahmer, Hitler, or (shudder) Jim Jones if I wanted. But I don't want, because of God.

  So look at the positive effect of the belief in God, before you dismiss it as being overly self-centered. There is much good in the evil that ISN'T permitted. If he prevented any evil, how would you know? So the assertion that the existence of human suffering disproves God's interest is specious at best, because it is based on an entirely different set of assumptions about his nature.

  CZAR
• 

  toreador

  Czar wrote:

  My secondary point is that his influence is undetectable unless you are expecting it.

  How would a person who disbelieves or is unsure of God's existance ever figure out that God stepped in and helped him if this is the way God works. If God wants everyone to be saved why would he couch his help or influence in undetectable ways? This would mean successful, happy, people who make good things happen for themselves are unawares that God has been influenceing their lives unbeknownest to them. In other words Czar, how do you know that the extra boost from mentally believing that God may help you if you pray, that that didnt influence you to take more control of your life?
  

  I would also like to say that I am not trying to belittle you for the positive accomplishments you have made in your life. In the medical world many people when taking a placebo for whatever ails them, it has almost as much a positive effect on the person as the real drug itself. Could prayer be just that placebo in your life? Giving you that extra boost to try harder and you were able to pull yourself out of the terrible situations you found yourself in, taking advantage of things you may not previously have taken advantage of? Many others in your same shoes or similar have prayed and they did not make their way out of their situation and some committed suicide. Is this because God was busy or unable or disinterested in those people? If this is true then God is not fair and all powerful. Why would we pray to a God who can't be everything to everyone? What criteria does God use for answering prayers?

  In all honesty I haven't completely made up my mind on who,what, or if God is. I really appreciate everyones comments but lets keep it civil please and don't anyone be giving anyone one of these .

  Thanks for your reply,

  Toreador
• 

  LittleToe

  Czar:
  Chill dude

  Just as a point of note, I used to wonder at Six's writing style. After actually meeting him, though, I came to realise that he often writes with a twinkle in his eye. He really is a great guy, and has an appreciably objective viewpoint.

  Besides, he just cracks me up when he starts refering to peoples pointy heads - ROFL.

  Six:
  Busted, dude!!!
  

  Just incase, I just want to point out that I'm not trying to demean your viewpoint, either, for all my laughter.
• 

  logansrun

  czar,
  

  I think the problem in this thread lies in the realm of what can we know and how can we know it. In reality, we cannot be certain of practically anything apart from mathematics and formal logic (even there, some would disagree). All we can do is attach probabilities to our knowledge claims. Even when I was a committed theist I realized that there was a slight chance I was wrong. (Of course, I now feel those odds are reversed)

  You seem to attach a probablity which is near absolute (100%) that God exists. You seem to imply that anyone who challenges you is "a committed secularist" and is just as certain that a deity does not exist. I don't really feel that any atheist on this forum is 100% certain that there is no God. I cannot say the same for "committed theists."

  The burden of proof is always on the theist in these discussions. True, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" but that axiom in itself does not mean theism (or any other proofless assertion) is correct. It just means it is possible.

  As for proving God I don't think that can ever be done. Will I ever have some subjective experience which will be so extraordinary that I would take the leap of faith and assign a high probability to the notion of God's existence? Who knows. I hope so. It would be great. Even if I did have some sort of subjective religious experience like that there would still be the possibility, however small or great, that I was hallucinating, engaging in wishful, creative thinking or that someone was playing a trick on me.

  B.
• 

  rem

  Czar,
  
  I have searched for god. I didn't go from a believing JW to non-believing atheist overnight. I prayed hard. I cried. I studied. I cried some more.
  
  Also, I could have worded my previous post better... I was merely referencing a personal, benevolent god (which seems to be the god you are describing, by the way). Obviously I understand that god(s) could take many different forms from indifferent to hostile, etc. Maybe god doesn't even have a personality (then why are we even calling it god?)
  
  Our conscience is no more proof of god than our oddly-designed eyes. Evolutionary advantage. In our case, since we are a social species, a set of social norms have evolved to create evolutionarily stable environments. Social groups that did not implement these norms died out. Our conscience is just a fine tuning of those social habits that have proven to work over the millenia.
  
  Now, I'm not talking about psychological barriers to free will when it comes to harming others. I'm talking about physical barriers. And yes, (again), I understand that this would only apply to a certain type of god. But I thought it was clear we are speaking about the god you believe in. The one that allegedly cares about people (nevermind the problem of evil). I'm sorry, but handwaving that issue does not inspire confidence in your reason for "knowing" god exists.
  
  If there is good evidence of one or more gods, I'd be happy to believe. I do not consider second-hand revelation good evidence (see Paine). I don't see life and the universe around me as self-evident proof of a personal creator (See David Hume). Maybe there is a god and he did not create us? Who knows? Not me. You, though, are the one making quite an audacious positive claim that you *know* something that in reality seems to be one of the deepest mysteries of the universe (and then decline to show evidence that matches the level of your perceived confidence). Can you blame some people if they find that a tad immodest?
  
  rem
• 

  SixofNine

  krikey LT, leave it to a guy wearing a skirt to try and ruin a guy's reputation!
• 

  hillary_step

  Czar,

  Thank you for sharing your life with us. While we may not all sympathize with everything you say, it does cost a lot to open your life up to strangers on such a Board as this. For that you have my sincere respect.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  LittleToe

  LOL @ Six
  You just wanted to come over as a badass, huh?
  Actually, you do it pretty well.
  Hehehe.