God does exist...

by czarofmischief 348 Replies latest jw friends

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief
    Can you blame some people if they find that a tad immodest?

    Not at all. That's why I spilled my guts out onto the screen. I wanted to invest as much of myself as possible and put it up there. I never meant to get dragged into a debate over what happened and continues to happen in my life.

    Whew. I'm done. I haven't felt like this since I was the smallest kid in the locker room (stomach hurts a bit). Gonna take a bit of a break from the board, I think, and get my head together. Half my pins popped out! Hopefully see you'all in Dallas soon.

    embarassed and just walking away... shucks...

    CZAR

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Czar:
    Aye. To say that you intimated that you were doing just that, you have been chewed out a bit.
    Take care, and if I'm blessed with the opportunity, I shall see you in May

  • Golf
    Golf

    Czar, you did what you had to do. It's been a good experience. Hopefully you can understand why I wouldn't waste my time and energy on such a topic. I have other useful and pressing activities to engage in, besides, no one is answerable to me. My mind is made up and anyone can call me whatever they want, and as Red Butler said, "Frankly Scarlet, I don't give a damn!"

    Guest 77

  • rem
    rem

    My mind isn't made up. (agnostic atheist vs. gnostic atheist)

    rem

  • toreador
    toreador

    Just for the record, I hope there is a God afterall, but I aint holding my breath.

  • willyloman
    willyloman

    What a fascinating thread. As I'm reading it, I am alternately agreeing with both points of view.! And thinking how wonderful it is to be freed from the cultish mentality the required me to think exactly the same way everybody else did on a given subject.

    It's clear to me that Czar had gotten the short end of the stick and had to do a lot of work to overcome his situation in life. He opened up his recovery toolbox and found the tools he needed; they worked for him, and he's grateful and wants to share. I think he's sharing because he was sincerely helped and hopes to help someone else, to pass it on in the spirit of altruistic love. Anybody think that's a bad thing? Not me.

    As folks move out from under the "religion" umbrella and into the bright sunshine of "spirituality," the truly refreshing discovery is that while religion divides us, spirituality leads us to hold hands, to connect, to be tolerant of one another's differences.

    Czar is convinced he got special help and can point to tangible results in his life. If that shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, find your own shoes to wear. But you gotta love the guy for two reasons. First, he's truly sincere. And second, and this is key: He isn't trying to force you to believe it. Prayer works for him. And it doesn't hurt anybody. Perhaps the day will come when we will be open to accept everybody's spiritual convictions, with but one provision: No one gets hurt. That will be a fine day.

  • patio34
    patio34

    You know, I am not unsympathetic to people, their problems, and their solutions. I have read most of this thread and became uncomfortable. It's like a church or something.

    Anyway, it's compelling for me to make this comparison, but want to preface it with my feeling that somehow atheists or even non-religious people feel, probably because in most areas they're a minority, they have to worry about offending the believer or somehow harming their faith.

    I reject that feeling and if a person's faith is harmed by someone not accepting it, then it wasn't much to begin with. Why should it harm you if I hold an opinion different from yours? Or if I reject your beliefs?

    I think of faith and personal experiences as being like Dumbo's feather. Dumbo could fly, but believed he had to have the feather. Now when another elephant may have come along and flew perfectly well without a feather, then it kind of seems obvious that Dumbo's feather is redundant and Dumbo is doing everything on his own power.

    Now as to faith helping a person out in life, it probably does, just like the feather. However, there are lots of people that are getting along (flying, if you will) just fine without faith or supernatural help and are doing it on their own power.

    It would also seem to be like saying there's an invisible pink unicorn that lives in my closet. You can't see it or any other way test for it or prove it's there, but believe me, it exists. I've prayed to it and my life has improved so much because of it. I know it's there. It helps and guides me every day.

    For people who have had a very difficult time in life, such as an alcoholic or addict, the belief that they have supernatural help has probably helped them overcome their addiction (but it doesn't mean it's the only way or even the best way). Just as Dumbo needed the feather because he didn't believe he could do it and wouldn't have been able to do it. But that does not prove the existence of a supernatural invisible creator.

    I'm not sorry to state my opinion. I didn't go into your church and try to berate your faith. But this is a public discussion board and there is more than one side to an exceptionally strong statement as this title is: God does exist. One can assert anything, but don't expect me to buy into it on the basis of personal anecdotes.

    As far as belittling the idea that proof of a scientific kind is necessary, I reject that also. Who would want to take medicine or be in a plane or many other things that have not been proven by a scientific method?

    It seems that many religious people are dogmatic and definite about an unproveable statement. I know that atheists can be that way too, but at least they aren't proposing a supernatural being. Really, they're just saying they don't believe it. Anymore than the magic feather or the pink unicorn in your closet.

    And that's pretty much my opinion. Thanks for listening to anyone that did.

    Pat

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Patio:
    Methinks you've missed the point of prayer.
    It really isn't about being a Checklist of nice things you'd like to happen to you, which then may, or may not occur.

    So many view it that way, though, and are subsequently disappointed.

    It seems that many religious people are dogmatic and definite about an unproveable statement. I know that atheists can be that way too, but at least they aren't proposing a supernatural being. Really, they're just saying they don't believe it. Anymore than the magic feather or the pink unicorn in your closet.

    And in good "believer style, I'd state that your comment is contradictory, as your disbelief is unprovable

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I think the problem is when people stop treating religious belief (even of the most smorgasbordian make-your-own-diety style) as a way of dealing with their subjective reality that works for them, and start treating it like something that is real in the standard way we determine reality in everday life.

    Of course, if one can show it is real in the standard way we determine reality in everyday life, fine, but most people accept that objective proof of god does not exist (and obviously there is no proof of the absense of existence). If one says 'god does exist for me', then no one else can really argue with you.

    But to reach largely empty agreements as to reality based on synchronicity isn't that impressive. Hey, when I moved to the Netherlands I drove along the A303 towards London with a rainbow leading the way for at least half an hour. I know why, as I know how rainbows are made. I've never been moving for so long and had the angles of light and the water droplets and me remain consistant like that though.

    I was starting a new life; how easy it would be for me to see a sign. In fact... I did. I invoke the name of the Glastonbury Fairy in such circumstances; I've definately felt her influence on my life at various points. The fact she doesn't objectively exist does deminish her impact on my life one iota.

    I just can't understand why people take it from an understanding of their personal experience to the next step, that of something that is somehow real and exists. Such a step implies those that don't feel something similar are wrong, either that or the acceptance of such Chicken Soup for the Soul platitudes about god being "all things to everybody" that the idea of god becomes utterly insubstansial and irrelevent.

    As their is no proof that individuals ideas about god are anything other than their ideas about god, those who actually go a step further again and insist others should do as they do are actually demanding worship of their own concept of god, as distinct from any external entity.

    And then their comes the really annoying bit, when the unbeliver gets incorporated into other belief structures; to a hardline Calvanist I am obviously not called to salvation, and my existence validates their beliefs as their beliefs require that there be an elect and a non-elect. To a utterly liberal new-ager, my disbelief is part of the wharp and weft of the Universe as are their beliefs.

    Which is a liberty, as I don't try and incorporate them into my belief about what amount to invisable friends, although I'd happily discuss why I think people are so suseptable to belief from the standpoint of evolutionary biology, and site evidence to support my argument.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe
    I just can't understand why people take it from an understanding of their personal experience to the next step, that of something that is somehow real and exists. Such a step implies those that don't feel something similar are wrong, either that or the acceptance of such Chicken Soup for the Soul platitudes about god being "all things to everybody" that the idea of god becomes utterly insubstansial and irrelevent.

    I would suggest that if they believed it to be merely a construct of their mind, they would stop having such faith, as belief presumes a reality.
    Not necessarily at all, hence this portion is a flaw in your reasoning. It is possible to believe that something is real, and personal to you, without taking the position that all others are wrong.

    As their is no proof that individuals ideas about god are anything other than their ideas about god, those who actually go a step further again and insist others should do as they do are actually demanding worship of their own concept of god, as distinct from any external entity.

    I agree, and there is a level of inappropriateness about this.

    Btw, Calvinism has more than just "hardline" adherents, who damn those who differ to Hell.

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