by czarofmischief 348 Replies latest jw friends
First off, czar, bravo to you for acknowledging that you came off in a way you did not intend, acknowledging the validity of anyone who felt that way, and then eloquently sharing what you beleive in a way that avoids the sort of offense you sought to avoid. Responsible communication.
Of course, you already know I disagree with you, but that's not the point - the point is that I really respect how you did what you did. Good on you.
I see it just the way Funkyderek posted it.At the same time, one's own experiences are just that, it belongs to the individual alone to believe what he or she believes.Thank God for Chapter 11 !
Blueblades
I used to be a firm believer in prayer but it seems "time and unforeseen occurence befalls us all". How does one know if it would have happened anyway or if God did it? It is in the eye of the beholder. I could have sworn I had a prayer answered one time but now I think it was probably just an accident.
Hey Czar
Nice to see someone with such strong convictions and beliefs. I must admit to not reading all the post as my eyes are stinging from being on the computer all day at work. I read a lot of it and some of the replies.
Me personally I don't know and to be honest I really dont care whether God exists or not anymore. After all if God does exist according to his word I am dead anyway because I dare to enjoy all his creations that he gave me to enjoy and has then turned around and condemed me for it anyway. If he doesn't exist well then it doesnt matter and I am dead anyway. So my plan is to just enjoy my life as I know it, as it presents itself to me day by day and go with the flow.
Good luck to you and I hope your faith always stands the test of time!
REM
Now if we had the ability to throw rocks off cliffs, but not fellow human beings, that would be interesting to me. If I could smash a watermellon with a hammer, but my free will was restricted in the sense that I could not harm a human with it, then that would tell me that there was some other force out there looking over us making sure that we could not do evil deeds. I'm sure I would love such a god just as much as believers love their god today with all of the cognitive dissonance involved.
I suspect that you wouldn't believe in God, even under these circumstances. Scientists would suggest that even though we could smash a watermelon, but not hurt a human, there must be some purely scientific explanation of this phenomena and it does not prove the existence of a god. Perhaps they'd say it was evolutionary, or some sort of psychological condition which prevents us from harming someone else.
For believers, the "proof" is there because we see God working in our lives and we just can't prove to someone else that it is actually God (and not our own delusion).
Sirona
I suspect I'm not the only one who would state that their belief is not based one one-off events, rather it's a pattern. I could go into examples, but they only "prove" something when they happen personally to you. Anything less is dismissable (as I've seen time and time again, from the eyes of those to whom I speak, when asked. They'd love to believe what they are hearing, but their mind rejects it - cognisive dissonance indeed), hence I don't bother my ass.
Purple:I found this comment interesting:
After all if God does exist according to his word I am dead anyway because I dare to enjoy all his creations that he gave me to enjoy and has then turned around and condemed me for it anyway.
Why would you believe that?
Because of what JW's taught you?
This would seem to be a system of "false positives".
Thank God for Chapter 11
Amen, blueblades!
Rem makes a good point - but basically it is the same one. Human evil disproves God's existence / interest. There is only one way to truly describe the color blue - open your eyes and look up. There is only one way to truly understand what the whole faith thing I'm talking about is - say a prayer and honestly look for an answer. Try it Rem, and if you really don't get an answer, maybe you don't need a God to get involved. Maybe you really do have everything under control.
But I would put forth the idea about your "hammer" argument - the urge to hurt other humans is vastly controlled by a huge amount of psychological and moral implications. The idea that murder is wrong keeps popping up over and over. Where did this idea come from? In fact, in a book I read about combat conditions, there is a syndrome whereby many soldiers don't ever shoot their guns - a significant percentage of them just avoid actually firing their weapons. I wish I could remember the title... But how does the idea that while humans could be completely free to kill each other, most often we would choose not to - does that help reconcile God to you?
I don't get the idea that God really wants to kill anyone, Purple. Enjoying creation? I don't get it, what are you talking about? What creation in particular? This is the danger of letting other humans become some kind of interface with God for you - they wind up controlling you. I mean, if he lets all these OTHER things happen here, then he probably isn't too worried about you drinking or toking or getting laid, right? PM me, babe.
Here's where the thread bursts into flame:
sixofnine, I've put up with a lot of crap from you. But this is the last time I'm going to let you belittle the extent of my life's problems. God lower my interest rates? I don't understand. Is this some reference to the political threads where we have disagreed?
In case you have trouble reading, which I think you do, I'm going to spell it out. I wish I could say it in palindrome (look it up, chump) so that your dyslexic ass couldn't fail to grasp the concepts I'm putting in front of you.
My problems, as affluent and Western as they are, nearly killed me and destroyed my family. I will NOT have you telling me that I should have just sucked it up and thought hard about all the poor little kids who get beat up in circumstances that I cannot possibly control. This world can make your life miserable no matter who you are, and the tools of prayer and faith are useful (for my part, indispensable) ones to overcoming them.
The purpose of this thread was not to discuss whether human cruelty disproves God's existence. It was to analyze whether God got involved in my own personal life and helped me. It's my thread, and if the topic doesn't please you, go drool your nihilist / unbelieving / chaotic grunge generation rhetoric elsewhere.
It is not for you to judge whether my problems were "worthy" of God's involvement. I know they were. And by acting NOW, maybe God prevented me from becoming the same kind of abusive, drunken madman that troubles your poor little head so you can't sleep at night.
For the last time: I cannot speak for anyone else. I can't speak for my parents. I can't speak for my sister. I certainly cannot speak for God. And I can't speak for all the starving kids, abused teenagers, and madmen in asylums. All I can speak for is the fact that God has been good to me, and He is trying to get me to do good for others, as best as I can.
This is exactly why I refused to put forth my proof of God's existence, earlier. This kind of insane dismissiveness. But I'm glad I did, because I've come away with the certain knowledge that I am making the right decisions in my life.
CZAR
czar,
Have you ever read, "The Why's of a Philosophical Scrivener" by Martin Gardner? He has two chapters that I wish every single person on this forum would read:
"Why I Do Not Believe God's Existence Can Be Demonstrated"
and
"Why I Am Not An Atheist"
Now, Gardner is a writer for Skeptical Inquirer and a former writer for Scientific American. I think his book pretty much sums up the entire "God/atheism" argument and provides believers and non-believers with something to think about.
Cheers!
B.
Now for my more critical post:
Czar, you are going about this all wrong. You are trying to prove God's existence and you have failed. That does not mean He doesn't exist, but your "proofs" are anything but! Really. Just have the courage to say that your personal conviction and longing is that God exists and He is watching out for you instead of propping up subjective experiences which can be looked at logically from a secular perspective as being proof positive of a personal God.
B.
