Hamas Founder DEAD

by Yerusalyim 119 Replies latest social current

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  blacksheep

  while it's nice'n handy to blame religious extremism for the causes of terroris m, am I the only person that thinks poverty and extremely poor living conditions also have something to do with it. There's no sole cause to the conflict, just as there's no simple solution.

  And while it's nice 'n handy to blame poverty and poor living conditions on terrorism, that clai rm just doesn't always fit. Osama bin Laden was VERY weathly, came from a wealthy family. Sadaam Hussein was filthy rich. Both were/are despotic terrorists.

  You're right. No simple formula here.
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  blacksheep

  Religion is involved in Northern Ireland, but the reasons behind the terrorism are complex.

  Funny, I used N. Ireland as an example in another thread to dispell the simple theory that "poverty/starvation" are the true culprits that drive people to terrorism. N. Ireland isn't known for it's poverty. It is clear that there is a religious dimension. Do shed light on what other "complexities" exist in that country which causes ongoing terrorism. Since we don't have anything remotely similar to those ongoing domestic terroristic battles in the US, I'm certainly open to understanding what complexities contribute to it.
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  scotsman

  Blacksheep

  Your raise an interesting point as to the reasons for "ongoing" terrorism. While you could point at religious sectarianism, nationalism and poverty for the roots of Northern Irish terrorism, but you'd now have to include drugs, racism and power for current reasons. Take a trip to Ireland, and find out. I'd also suggest that everyone pays a visit to Israel. It depressed me incredibly.

  Again, I would stress that I am not merely saying that poverty causes terrorism, but that to seek one cause for it in Islam is also fallacious. It's like trying to find one cause for the rise of Hitler. And while the inidvidual terrorists named here may not be poor, they would probably argue that they fight on behalf of the poor and disenfranchised (not that I would agree with that).
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  blacksheep

  "Take a trip to Ireland, and find out. I'd also suggest that everyone pays a visit to Israel. It depressed me incredibly."

  Actually, I have traveled throughout Ireland, including N. Ireland. Acutally the first time I was there during an unsually peaceful time. I'll pass on Israel...too unstable for me.

  Again, I would stress that I am not merely saying that poverty causes terrorism, but that to seek one cause for it in Islam is also fallacious. It's like trying to find one cause for the rise of Hitler. And while the inidvidual terrorists named here may not be poor, they would probably argue that they fight on behalf of the poor and disenfranchised (not that I would agree with that).

  Agreed that there are complexities here. But again, even with Hitler, Germany wasn't poor and disefranchised. Maybe still smarting from WWI.

  Actually, there is a similarity between Hitler and modern day Islamicl terrorists: It is FASCISM. Hitler was a fascist; he also claimed to be a Christian, but what he did was HIGHLY unchristian. Fasicist terrorists are claiming the are fighting a righteous war, and using Islam/Allah to back them up. That does not represent the real teachings of Islam.

  Either way, it's a deadly combination of belief in one's vast superiority over people of other cultures, religions, races...whatever, doubled with the belief that it's backed by God, that creates fascist views/behaviors.
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  scotsman

  Blacksheep

  I guess as a holiday maker you didn't get much chance to chat with people about the causes of the Troubles. Even in peace time violence continues, but because it's not bombs, or in Britain, it recieves scant attention.

  I didn't suggest that Hitler's rise could be attributed to poverty. It was the complexity of reasons I was refering to. Having said that, the economic crisis of the Thirties didn't hamper him. I don't think it's a balanced comparison between the religion of the Nazis and the religion of Hamas - the latter has a much closer connection. As you say, it is the "belief in one's vast superiority over people of other cultures, religions, races...whatever", but rather than coupled with religion, I would say any idealogical stance, religious or political.
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  blacksheep

  I guess as a holiday maker you didn't get much chance to chat with people about the causes of the Troubles. Even in peace time violence continues, but because it's not bombs, or in Britain, it recieves scant attention.

  So, first you suggest that I travel to Ireland. When I inform you that I have in fact traveled there, you up the bar. Now I should have had extensive conversations with people on the "causes" the troubles there. No, I cannot say I met too many folks who wanted to go into detail about the reasons for the age-old troubles (assuming of course you'd get straight story about exactly WHAT is causing the trouble... Regardless, I have lived in the UK...not just on holiday...

  I don't think it's a balanced comparison between the religion of the Nazis and the religion of Hamas - the latter has a much closer connection. As you say, it is the "belief in one's vast superiority over people of other cultures, religions, races...whatever", but rather than coupled with religion, I would say any idealogical stance, religious or political"

  I'm not sure I fully understand you point here. Mine was that fascism typically ALWAYS is boosted by a deepseated religious belief that God's on their side. Look at the Crusades...look at Henry III's break from the Catholic Church. The real reason was the Pope wouldn't allow him a divorce. So, he sets up his own church, gets a divorce, kills a few more wives, and mercilessly persecutes Catholics. All in the name of religion.

  Religion doesn't necessarily cause the rise of intolerant fascism; it merely give it some of the best support you can get to create a totalatarian state. If you can get people with deepseated religious beliefs to believe what they are doing is what GOD wants them to do, you can get them to do just about anything.
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  blacksheep

  That should've been Henry the VIII.
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  scotsman

  I'm sorry Blacksheep, I wasn't being pissy about your visit to Ireland. But in my experience it's not hard to get an opinion (however biased) of the Troubles.

  You're right that religion can contribute to the establishment of totalitarian states, but it isn't necessary. Fascism may have exploited its religious connections, but can the same be said of Stalin, Pol Pot etc.? What they do share in common is their ideological nature. It could be said that your description "that fascism typically ALWAYS is boosted by a deepseated religious belief that God's on their side" applies to Bush's administration.

  I don't deny the contributary factor religion plays in terrrorism or dictatorial regimes but my point remains that it is just one of many factors.
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  LittleToe

  Blacksheep:

  Religion doesn't necessarily cause the rise of intolerant fascism; it merely give it some of the best support you can get to create a totalatarian state. If you can get people with deepseated religious beliefs to believe what they are doing is what GOD wants them to do, you can get them to do just about anything.

  I've gotta agree with ya there.

  Just as I've got to agree with Scotsman here:

  I don't deny the contributary factor religion plays in terrrorism or dictatorial regimes but my point remains that it is just one of many factors.
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  blacksheep

  It could be said that your description "that fascism typically ALWAYS is boosted by a deepseated religious belief that God's on their side" applies to Bush's administration.

  I think you would have more of a case if everyone in the Bush Admin. supported the action against Iraq on the basis of "God is on our side." That's simply not true. Even Bush went to great pains to insure the nation understood that the actions taken by terrorists is not relfective of the teachings of Islam. That the Islamofascist terrorist seem to hate the fact that in the US, people of all different religions can live together: both Christians, Muslims, Jews, and others.

  The issue that the Bush admin. is highlighting is NOT that God is on our side (and BTW, I am DEFINATELY not religious), but it is the atrocious violation of basic HUMAN RIGHTS that the terrorists, and the likes of Sadaam Hussein, are clearly and flagrantly violating.