Abortion, and the population explosion, what your veiw. (page 10)

SheilaM

Would that there were truly a vengeful god to meet out justice for all.

The quote is a wish for one not a statment of fact.

His feelings and comments too are what made our marriage work.

frankiespeakin

Sheila,

Are you trying to say his bark is worse than his bite???Smile.

Yerusalyim

I notice no one on the anti-choice side of the debate has yet answered any questions regarding equivalency (other than by assertion or repetiton, and that's not an answer).

Say what?

Donkey,

WHY is abortion murder? Because it is the killing of an innocent human life...that's why. That you can't see that speaks volumes. what makes a fetus human? You mean aside from it's distinct DNA? Aside from the fact that these babies..play...sleep...move, etc in the womb...I don't know...what makes them human?

I think the debate is interesting in light of the new law being considered that would allow a person to be charged with a crime if they kill a "fetus" against the mother's will. An example...a woman was 1 week out from delivery...her husband decided he didn't want the baby...held her down, and punched her abdomen...then refused to call for help or allow her to...several days later she gave birth to the dead baby...he was charged with assault on the woman...not murder...and that's thanks to the BS nonsense from the "pro choice(read kill your baby whenever you want to) crowd. Our hero John Kerry was one of 38 to vote against this law because it defined a baby as life.

frankiespeakin

Yer,

Don't you see your views are very ego centered. The ego of the fetus is very undeveloped,, it is still part of it's mother,, the child has to be out of the mothers womb to really be able to develop an ego. Even after the baby is born it finds it hard to think of itself different than the mother. Ego development and seperation occur in gradual time to be what it see as seperate,, an awareness,,takes time,, and much observation on the childs part.

Yerusalyim

In that case, a child born with limited mental capacity can be killed because it's "ego" is also underdeveloped. Dude, your arguement is terribly hollow.

frankiespeakin

Yer,

If a childs brain was permanently brain damaged to the point of a 3 month old fetus,, I could see euthanization as a very viable option and morally better than trying to keep alive this vegatable as has often been a some what accurate description..

frankiespeakin

I just wanted to correct my last post where it said:

Ego development and seperation occur in gradual time to be what it see as seperate,, an awareness,,takes time,, and much observation on the childs part.

To:

Ego development in the new borns brain occurs gradually,, over time as the infant come to recognize what it sees as its self as being seperate from the mother,, this awareness,,takes time,, and much observation on the childs part.

donkey

You mean aside from it's distinct DNA? Aside from the fact that these babies..play...sleep...move, etc in the womb...I don't know...what makes them human?

Yeru,

So all that matters is the DNA? Is a person with a mechanical heart still human? How about a machine with a human heart? Each would have human DNA afterall...

Is an adult on life support murdered if you turn off the lifesupport? Afterall they have "distinct DNA"...

How is an unborn fetus different than an adult on life support? If it's life support is terminated it dies just like the adult doesn't it?

If a fetus can be checked for DNA anomalies of a serious nature is it OK to abort it?

I don't think your world is as black and white as you see it. It is filled with contradictions if you truly think about it isn't it? Further if the whole subject starts getting grey is it still murder? I am using your own defintions - all we are doing is looking for consistency afterall.

SheilaM

My daughter miscarried at 4 months so the fetus (my grandson) about 16 weeks. He was a little person, fingers and toes a little boy just too little to live outside in the world. The difference he was wanted and wouldn't have been abused. Thunder was able to see him, for me I was too afraid.

I do find it so ironic in our world so many people would give anything to have just one child. While others have abortion after abortion my Aunt had at least five.

Frankie: Yes, his bark is much worse than his bite. He just wants things right when really sometimes the matter is too complex to be fixed.

Abaddon

Yeru

WHY is abortion murder? Because it is the killing of an innocent human life...that's why. That you can't see that speaks volumes. what makes a fetus human? You mean aside from it's distinct DNA?

Here you make an ad hominum attack against the moral character of people who are pro-choice. This, and other people wishing vengeful gods on the pro-choice lobby is what actually 'speaks volumes', if you want to get personal.

And here you imply all 'human lives' are the same on account of their DNA. If this claim is true, and you were in a fire and had a choice between saving ONE person, chosing between someone who was paralysed but mentally aware, and saving someone in a persistant vegatative state, you would save the first person This invalidates you assertion that any entity with human DNA has equal rights.

You also constantly make comparisons with things that are accepted as wrong (infantacide) and abortion. It's like saying "well, we can kill people in a war to achieve our aims so what's wrong with killing someone behind a bank counter to achieve my aims?" If one accepts that death is neccesary sometimes in warfare, it does not mean that death is acceptable in other circumstances.

Aside from the fact that these babies..play...sleep...move, etc in the womb...

Pet rats play, sleep and move. Yet because they are furry, and let's face it, rats, you don't get in a lather saving their lives. Now, I'll gladly admit I would hate to have to abort a 16 week-term fetus. Although it's brain mass is similar to that of a rabbit, it LOOKS like a 5' long baby. I think many peoples distress over abortion is caused by the appearance of fetuses from the late first trimester onwards. They LOOK like tiny babies, even when they are the size of key-fobs. But mere appearance does not equal equality with a baby or even a late-term fetus.

I don't know...what makes them human?

First, they are human; the discussion is broadly about whether a human fetus has the same rights as a human baby. It is you who are implying the pro-choice lobby say they're not human, which is just a lie that makes your argument sound more dramatic. For YOU, your conviction that they are equal to adult humans in rights is what makes them equal. And that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. BUT you have consistantly failed to DEMONSTRATE why they are equal. Your convinced anyway, and just repeating that is not a real argument.

I think the debate is interesting in light of the new law being considered that would allow a person to be charged with a crime if they kill a "fetus" against the mother's will. An example...a woman was 1 week out from delivery...her husband decided he didn't want the baby...held her down, and punched her abdomen...then refused to call for help or allow her to...several days later she gave birth to the dead baby...he was charged with assault on the woman...not murder...and that's thanks to the BS nonsense from the "pro choice(read kill your baby whenever you want to) crowd. Our hero John Kerry was one of 38 to vote against this law because it defined a baby as life.

Yeru, you seem very unaware of the duplicity of the right-wing religious lobby. They will try to get Creation taught in schools by calling it Intelligent Design. They will campaign for laws that infringe upon the arena of fetal rights as a stepping stone for more anti-abortion legislation.

Personally, I am in favour of someone causing the death of a fetus by means of assault having a harsher penalty than someone who just assaults an adult. Most cultures view assault upon a pregnant woman as worse than assault upon a woman; the law should take this into account. I don't believe this should be so because magically a 16-week term fetus has rights if it's mother is punched, but doesn't have rights if it's aborted. I believe this should be so as the fetus is for want of any other word the property of the woman carrying it, and for her not to see due punishment or compensation for damage to her property would be unfair.

Funnily enough, the Mosaic Law concerning two men injuring a woman in a struggle is exactly the same. The woman (and her contents) were chattal; she belonged to someone. Thus even an accidental injury or her (or her contents) was worthy of compensation or punishment. IF the Mosaic Law applied to deliberate abortion, then it would be in a unabiguos context outside of accidental injury.

However, the law is a Trojan Horse for the religous right.

Abortion, and the population explosion, what your veiw.

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