Bible Mind Control is,,, Faith: belief in the unprovable,which,is glorified

by frankiespeakin 59 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi Ross; I edited a bit off the line where I mentioned condescending, as I wasn't sure if you'd be insulted by it... my tongue in cheek can occasionally be someone elses leathal insult... and that left it hanging there out of place...

    No. I disagree with some of them, and in some cases might go to the bother of pointing out their flaws, but I don't mock.

    Pffff... yeah, well, are we talking about to their face or in your heart? As a Christian, they're the same, remember? Bloody glad I'm not a Christian, it's really difficult...

    I see opinions that can be mocked as worthy of mocking. When Jesus said turn the other cheek, he actually meant you should turn, drop and moon. Didn't you know that?

    And Pascall's wager is morally bankrupt

    I don't think Pascall would agree with that.

    Statement of the obvious! Saddam Hussain would not agree he was a tyrant.

    I suspect he was quite genuine (regardless of how migguided you may believe him to be).

    Genuineness doesn't preclude moral bankruptcy or excuse error.

    I take the rest of your comments under advisement, though.

    Is that a nice way of saying you don't have a snappy reply to the rather obvious fact god would know you were just keeping an eye on the odds, and that equally obviously such a reason would invalidate faith adopted for risk minimisation?

    And that's fine. Problem is these 'placeholders' become entities regardless of their reality.

    And your issue with that is?

    Because the entities based in ideation develop into entites people claim substance for. How do you think religion and belief in the unseen developed?

    It's just a personal gripe (that I have) when I see people deconstructing other people's belief systems mercilessly, without due regard to the consequence of said actions.

    Hang on a minute; so, let's leave the JW's to it? I think you don't mean that.

    What I think you mean (please correct me if I am wrong) is that you don't like some people's beliefs being deconstructed.

    How do we decide which ones to leave alone Ross?

    If a belief system can be deconstructed, and this deconstruction shows that it's probably just wishful thinking at the end of the day, why is this a negative consequence?

    Discovering the 'truth' about something is postive, even if painful, as hiding from reality is silly - reality knows where you live, you can't really hide from it.

    And, if god is just an ideation, a place-holder, what's wrong with saying it? It's not like it'll mind, is it? And if people don;t know, then they should, surely?

    For far too long people hve been able to spout abslute bollocks about their imaginary friends without concequences... but as Bob says, the times, they are a-changing. In responding to flower you said;

    I think Abaddon has pretty much covered all the bases of religion gone wrong (although I've yet to see examples of it "gone right").

    Okay, let make a list of example of where religion has gone right.

    Now, I think, if we really want to be fair, we have to factor out the BAD things people would do ANYWAY, as it would be unfair to blame religion for human behaviour.

    But then we also have to factor out the GOOD things people would have done ANYWAY.

    So, we need a list of the good things people have done JUST because of religion, and a list of the bad things people have done JUST for religion. Non-religious groups that function as religions can be included, like totalitarian political parties.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Gyles:

    ...I wasn't sure if you'd be insulted by it...

    Nahhhh! I don't take offense easily
    Thanks for the consideration, though. It's appreciated.

    ...As a Christian, they're the same, remember?

    They are? Maybe you'd like to expand on that, if you feel so inclined. I may be missing your point.

    Bloody glad I'm not a Christian, it's really difficult...

    You'd better believe it. It aint all rice and "Jesus love you".

    When Jesus said turn the other cheek, he actually meant you should turn, drop and moon.

    ROFL - you know I may just try that

    Genuineness doesn't preclude moral bankruptcy or excuse error.

    True, but I suspect it's hard to be genuine AND morally bankrupt, simultaneously. In the case in question, I believe he was just genuine (erroneous or otherwise).

    Is that a nice way of saying you don't have a snappy reply...

    Actually my first thought was reply to the thread with "No you're not, you're just a very naughty boy!!!"
    Gawd I love Monty Python!!!

    ...such a reason would invalidate faith adopted for risk minimisation?

    Once more I ask - what is "Faith"? What is this elusive "relationship" that these Christian's keep babbling about?
    We all start with similar questions about "how the world is". It's the conclusions that differ.

    I think you don't mean that.

    Correct.

    What I think you mean (please correct me if I am wrong) is that you don't like some people's beliefs being deconstructed.

    No, I mean that if you're going to deconstruct it, at least offer then a straw to grab that gives them half a chance of not turning into a human jelly.
    I made similar comments to JamesThomas regarding Mysticism, and baby-steps.

    How do we decide which ones to leave alone Ross?

    None - bugger them all, I say. But at least be around to pick up the pieces.

    And, if god is just an ideation, a place-holder, what's wrong with saying it? It's not like it'll mind, is it? And if people don;t know, then they should, surely?

    Some can take that, some can't. IMHO we're all on a road of comprehension.

    I think Abaddon has pretty much covered all the bases of religion gone wrong (although I've yet to see examples of it "gone right").

    Okay, let make a list of example of where religion has gone right.

    I believe that you may have missed my point, as I've highlighted, for emphasis. Personally I think religion can be a dangerous thing, though (even yet) I believe it has it's place in the world.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi Ross...

    As to the 'they're the same thing', I was thinking of JC saying 'Face it, if you look at a woman with desire... then it's just as if you'd bonked her'. Those might not be the exact words but they're certainly the spirit of them.

    As to Pascal's wager, at least with a fiver on Dobbin in the 5.30pm at Newmarket we'd have some kind of resolution. Someone can have an opinion that is morally bankrupt (being good just in case) and not see it that way; after all, my opinion on Pascal's wager is an opinon. And I don't think you're basing your belief just on a risk assesment, as no one could really think that god's that easy.

    And I AM a naughty boy. I never pulled the wings of flies as a little boy. I now pull wings of belief structures. I have wondered which is worse; to let someone be, or alert them. They will have to deal with the consequences of erroneous beliefs OR deal with adjusting to their beliefs being erroneous; which is worse? Even if I think I'm right am I justified acting like I am? Why do I have hairs on my big toes?

    My parents are in their late 70's. I don't see much point in destroying what they've believed in their entire lives, if I could. I can't start on my family until their dead. Maybe I should have a different attitude towards them and let strangers the hell alone until I've sorted my own house out. I have lots of questions, and nowhere near the same number of answers... just like everyone else.

    As for picking up the pieces... well, one can do that one's self you know. I'm quite happy to witter on about how, given the fact existence is pretty much indistinguishable from a joke as it doesn't mean anything, we have the very very rich and exciting responsibility of making it mean something - to us; perception is reality, eh? Everyone trips on that. I'm very happy to tell people that anyone who thinks not beleieving in god is an existence free of wonder and awe that they're wrong; I can be as wonderstruck by a beautiful day as anyone else... babies are amasing... women an utter work of art... nature in all its glory etc.

    But often people are so busy defending what are essentially indefensable postions they don't look over the ramparts and see what's on the other side.

    Freedom. AT least to my eyes, and they're admitedly jaded.

    And I did miss your point re. not having seen religions good points; very drole, I agree.

    I think this thread has run it's course, what about you?

  • itsallgoodnow
    itsallgoodnow

    LT Pardon me (and I mean that most sincerely) if I misunderstood that you weren't talking about THIS thread, no, but OTHER threads.... OK, whatever. This back and forth is getting boring.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    It seems to me that this idea that people will melt into a quivering mass of spineless jello when they let go of their "belief system" is just one more baseless belief to let go of. Now see, sometimes circular logic is a good thing.

    In fact what happens when one lets go of firmly held beliefs is this (pull up a chair, this is long and fascinating): They get up the next morning, they drive to work, and along the way they grin at how dogmatically they held such unsupported beliefs. "My what a moron I was" they chuckle. When they get to work, they walk through the hallways calmly shooting anyone they don't like do their job, still with that silly grin on their face. Etc.

    Besides, doesn't 2 Thessabaddonians 3:2 say that faith is not a possesion of smart people?

    Actually, here is a photodrama of what happens when people lose their faith (warning, contains graphic images), it's really sad at the end:




  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    muerte fin

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Darn - I can no longer read this thread because someone, who will remain nameless (Six) has screwed up his post by not putting any "spaces" between his Emoticons.

    C'mon Six, Edit, ya bugger!!! It'll only take one every dozen Emoticons, or so, and wont alter the flow of your "drama"

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I'm way ahead of ya LT. Now did you get the moral of my teaching illustration? That's right, puppies never lose faith. Not even when their sad lonely atheistic masters' bloated & beer soaked bodies begin to smell.

    Six~ gather round, children class

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Gyles:

    Why do I have hairs on my big toes?

    I heard, many years ago that you can distinguish a guy from a gal, by this very issue. I wonder if one of the gals might confirm if that rumour is true. I've never actually got around to checking whether or not my beau has hair there.

    Everyone trips on that. I'm very happy to tell people that anyone who thinks not beleieving in god is an existence free of wonder and awe that they're wrong...

    Aye. There are plenty of misconceptions out there, and that's probably as harmful as "if you don't believe the way I do then you must be wrong!". Childish.

    I think this thread has run it's course, what about you?

    Aye, but it was fun while it lasted.
    Six's Photodrama being a distinct highlight

    IAGN:
    Drama queen! We've hardly had a "back and forth".
    And yes, I was including this one in my comments. It's just that it wasn't restricted to this thread.

    Six:
    Maybe I'm just a little sensitive to some of the effects that can be had. Just because some have the fortitude to survive such a rocking, doesn't mean that others have.
    Personally I was distraught, and could hardly function for a time (some say that I still can't ).

    It just highlights again (at least to me) that we are all different. Were all individuals. (sorry - I couldn't resist another "Life of Brian" quote).

    PS. Oh, and you need more "spaces" ya b*stard!!!! LOL

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    OK I'm climbing on my soap box

    I think it is way too easy to label too many things as mind control. The Bible is a book. There is no one holding it and forcing people to read it or believe it or accept all of it.

    Yes it has messages of doom for those who don't believe but it is just a book. You can believe what you want and walk away and pretned you never read it. Therefore there is no control going on. You don't have to read it at all. In fact, the majority of people in the world have probably never seen one.

    My problem with labeling a book as mind control is that the word begins to lose its meaning. Mind control is very specific in the way it is used and in its controls. A book does not meet those criteria.

    Does it meet the following criteria

    Four Aspects of Mind Control

    1) INFORMATION CONTROL:

    • Important information which is available to the general public is withheld from members and potential members.
    • Deception is the basic feature of all cult recruitment. It is also what keeps people inside cults.
    • Information is one of the best weapons against cults.

    • In cults information about the cult's history, purposes, doctrines, financial disclosures, methods of dealing with problems, counseling, training, and discipline for offenses are kept as confidentail as possible.
    • Only those members with trusted status are allowed inside information.

    2) THOUGHT CONTROL:

    • "Truth" and reality are distorted for those inside the group by subtly changing the definitions of common terms with new meanings through the use of code words, cliches, and slogans.
    • Different words make the members feel special and separate from outsiders.
    • These different words confuse outsiders who want to understand what the group believes and talks about.
    • The change in definitions of significant words keeps even the members from understanding their own beliefs.
    • Leaders of cults repress questions by conditioning their members to employ "thought-stopping" statements, prayers, hymns, Bible verses, mantras, tongues or rituals to drown out doubt, questions, anxiety or uncertainty. "I can't think about that." "How can you question (the leaders) after all they have done?" etc. The intention is to stop questions regarding the system or leaders.
    • The word "faith" is employed in a negative sense. Members are conditioned to view "faith" in terms of blind submission to the leaders, rather than positive certainity in God's love.
    • Members are conditioned to feel guilty for any curiosity about what is going on within the group; curiosity is a lack of faith. (Therefore, even after some people leave a mind control group, they may be afraid to examine information which explains the background of their old belief system.)
    • Typically, the word "grace" has a different meaning from the Biblical use. The "God" of the group is also different from the God of the Bible. God is defined by, and eventually becomes the group.

    3) EMOTION CONTROL:

    • Guilt, fear and shame are projected onto the members, prompting blame toward themselves for their depression, lack of understanding, anxiety, or inability to cope, rather than examining the leaders, the group's policies, history, doctrines, scandals, and at times, even crimes.
    • Phobic attitudes or behaviors are sometimes noticeable when attempts are made to converse with members regarding their belief in the group or its leaders.
    • Fear, anger, rage or repetitious statements which only go in circles keep the members from thinking through to any rational conclusions.
    • Fear of confrontation with family is common, resulting in very few people being rescued.

    4) BEHAVIOR CONTROL:

    • Tight control of behavior secures the leaders' position of authority and importance.
    • The behavior control impresses members and outsiders to view the group as especially spiritual or successful.
    • The leaders link the required behavior to their special "revelation" of a text of scripture. However the required behaviors are usually superficial controls, affecting appearances and outward activity rather than inward character. These can include grooming, daily activities, career choices, clothing, specific technology, posture, speech mannerisms, food choices, recreation, education, even decisions about marriage, sex and children. (They usually do not deter moral sin.)
    • If a person does not conform, he may be urged to become more like an older group member; to follow the leaders' "example".
    • OBEDIENCE TO THE HUMAN LEADERS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSON TO LEARN.
    • The leaders cannot totally control one's inner thoughts, but if they can command behavior, hearts and minds will usually follow.
    • The behavior control isolates the members from society even more effectively.

    Now if you want to talk about how PEOPLE use the Bible to control others that is another matter. But a book cannot do all of the above

    getting off my soapbox

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