All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
The king on David's throne is called God in the same sense that Jesus is called God, as is seen by comparing Psalm 45:6 with Hebrews 1:8.
Herk, the King on David's throne in Psalm 45:6 IS JESUS CHRIST and NO ONE ELSE! Just read the CONTEXT:
Psalm 45:6: Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
Psalm 45:11: So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he [is] thy Lord; and worship thou him.
Psalm 45:17: I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.
If that is talking about David, then that means David is God, and thet David should be worshiped as God and Lord, and that people should be praising him forever and ever as God.
Herk, I cannot believe that you claim that this is referring to DAVID or any other HUMAN! It is clearly and undoubtedly referring only to God The Son.
Herk said:
Does the Bible say or not say that other individuals besides the Father and Jesus are God?
Read what Herk just said. Herk is claiming that OTHER INDIVIDUALS ARE GOD!
No, the Bible NEVER, EVER says that any other individuals are God!
The Bible does say that others are "gods" or "a god" or "a false god" or "so-called gods", but NEVER God!
There is the One True God by nature. Then there are false gods who are not God by nature. Then there are "mighty ones" who are not God by nature.
Herk said:
Since there is only one true God, which is more reasonable, that both the Father and Jesus are Almighty God or that Jesus is God in the sense that angels, Moses, David, Israel's judges and others are God?
Can you show me one Verse where it is acceptable to worship an angel, human, or anything else as God Almighty?
Compare these two Verses:
Revelation 19:10: And I fell at his [the angel's] feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Hebrews 1:6: And again, when he [The Father] bringeth in the firstbegotten [Jesus] into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
Can you explain those two Verses, Herk?
Herk said:
Where in the Bible is there even a hint that God is three rather than one?
You might want to try and actually read a couple of the dozens and dozens of Scriptures I posted in my original post in this Thread.
herk
UnDisfellowshipped,
Herk, why does it make any difference whether a person uses phrases that are not in the Bible to describe things that are in the Bible?
No, not if the thoughts are in the Bible. My objection is to the Trinitarian use of phrases that suggest ideas contrary to what the Bible teaches.
I never have, and never will use the husband and wife illustration in reference to God's One Being. I used it in reference to God's UNITY.
Then why bring up the illustration during a discussion of the Trinity? The Trinity claims that God is one divine being or entity with three members. If unity is at issue, then why not claim that all genuine Christians are members of the Godhead, since they are all at unity with God and Christ and one another?
In fact, I do not even talk about God's "Being" when I speak about the Trinity, because the Bible doesn't talk about God's Being.
- "Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man." (Acts 17:29, English Standard Version)
- "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone?an image made by man's design and skill." (Acts 17:29, NIV)
Note that there is but one divine being. Trinitarians make their worship laughable by claiming that their god is three persons in one being or in one Godhead. How quaint that all three persons of the Trinity have but one head to share between them! Ah, but remembering that the Son has two natures, we must add a second head for his human nature which is separate from his divine nature.
Absolutely! I'll take an ACCURATE, RELIABLE, FAITHFUL, NON-TAMPERED WITH Bible (such as the King James Version which God used for centuries) any day over the modern, perverted, corrupted, Satanic translations such as the NWT, and some of the other "Modern Bibles".
That statement says a great deal about your respect and regard for other Trinitarians who produced some of those translations. It also says much about your Christianity or lack thereof. I now see a bitterness and spitefulness that I hadn't noticed before.
I prefer Translations that actually agree with the EARLY Christian Fathers' Scripture quotations.
Herk, where are "angels" ever called God in the Bible? The only Angel ever called God is THE Angel of the Lord -- The Pre-Human Jesus Christ who was worshiped and prayed to as YAHWEH!
Angels are called God in Genesis 16:7, 13; 22:8, 11, 15, 16 and Exodus 23:20, 21. To say that the angel of the Lord was the pre-human Jesus is contrary to what is stated in Hebrews 1:1, 2. By the way, "Yahweh" isn't in the KJV! Haven't you defiled yourself by resorting to a Satanic translation?
Herk, where was David ever called God in the Bible, EVER?
According to some Trinitarian scholars, at Psalm 45:6.
Those wicked judges of Israel were FALSE gods, read the Bible:
It appears that you yourself need to do more Bible reading. See Exodus 21:6; 22:8, 9, 28. Also note that Jesus said those judges in Psalm 82 were men "unto whom the word of God came." (John 10:35, KJV)
Herk, was Moses God by his own nature and his own power?
Are you saying the Bible does not call him God and that he can be God only according to your terms?
The Scriptures clearly show that Moses was NOT truly God -- not by nature or position or power. God simply made Moses a mighty one over Pharaoh!
The Scriptures also clearly show that Jesus was NOT truly God--in the Trinity sense. Just as God "made" Moses God to Pharaoh, "God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36) God "made" Jesus Lord just as he "made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is" and just as he "made the world and all things therein." (Acts 4:24; 17:24, KJV)
herk
herk
ellderwho

Undisfellowshippped,
Here is the biggest Scripture which shows extremely clearly that God DESIRES to save ALL MEN:
1st Timothy 2:1-7: Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle--I am speaking the truth in Christ and not lying--a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
What is your explanation of those Verses?
The Bible clearly teaches that God The Father placed each and every sin for each and every human who has ever lived onto the Body of Christ on the Cross, so that Jesus died for ALL MEN from ALL TIME.
However, only the people who put their faith in the True Jesus will receive the free gift of salvation by grace through faith.

Your rebuttal to Deputy Dog is riddled with contradictions from previous post.
Your understanding of "free will" goes head to head with your presentation of "the Father who does the drawing" analogy.
IMHO you believe that, yes the father will draw you, but in the end you will have the final say.
How does this fit with what Paul describes us as humans.
How does this fit with what Jesus tells us is the process of being "born again"
Jesus clearly states "all that the Father has given me" none will be lost except the one so that scripture will be fullfilled" (paraphrasing)
Undis,
As scriptures teaches "we are dead" Now, if you are made "alive in the spirit" as you agree (by the drawing by the Father reference you made) how can you make yourself "dead again without spirit"?
If God chooses us, we cannot un-choose him.
If we do the "choosing of God" or it is left up to us we will always win out and reject God its our nature to reject him, we want the darkness " he came unto his own and his own did not recognize him"
And even when he does draw us and make us "heirs" we are still at war in the flesh as Paul states in Romans. The Lord appears to Paul, and in the end Paul battles greatly with the flesh. In utter disgust (I suppose)Paul exclaims "who will save me from this body of death" So here Paul has the "anointing of the Spirit" encounters the Lord Jesus himself and still doesnt know what to do with himself. Obivously the flesh wants no part of the Holy Spirit.
As you would have it our flesh nature can decide.Yes or No to the Holy Spirit.
Your refer to scriptures that state "all men come to him" yes thats true. But who comes? Only those drawn.
You brought up a good example although not in favor of your agrument about Manasseh. The verse shows he came to seek forgiveness, why? because one day he felt like it? No. The verse shows only after God "put him in afliction" did he seek the LORD.
But you used that verse to show Manassehs' free will. Its just not there.
only the people who put their faith
Isnt this a fruitage of the Spirit?
Who gives us the Faith?
God is the only "free agent."
E
herk
herk
Richie

On page 7 of the booklet Should You Believe in the Trinity?, unreferenced quotes from Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and Origen are made. Why are these quotes unreferenced? Also on page 7 of this same booklet, the statement is made, "Thus, the testimony of the Bible and of history makes it clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for SEVERAL CENTURIES thereafter." Based on the quotes below, how can the Watchtower Society make these claims?
Justin Martyr (110-165 AD):
"... nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." - First Apology of Justin, Ch LXIII; "... but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and the Lord of hosts ..." - Dialogue with Trypho, Ch XXXVI; "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Ibid, Ch LXIII. Irenaeus (120-202 AD):
"... and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King ..." - Against Heresies, Bk 1, Ch 10; "But that He is in His own right , beyond all men who ever
lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets and apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth." - Against Heresies, Bk 3, Ch 19.
Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD):
"For 'before the morning star it was;' and 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man ..." and "The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends." - Exhortation to the Heathen, Ch 1.
Tertullian (145-220 AD):
"Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her - being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ." and "... while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing them in their order the three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 2; "With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity, as with His ministers and witnesses." and "...I mean the Word of God, 'through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.' Now if He too is God, according to John (who says) 'The Word was God'..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 12.
Hippolytus (170-236 AD):
"For he speaks to this effect: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "...'Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.' And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth." - Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Ch 14; "For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings." - The Refutation of All Heresies, Bk 10, Ch 30.
Origen (185-254 AD):
"From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all ..." - Origen de Principiis, 1.3.2; "For it is one and the same thing to have a share in the Holy Spirit, which is (the Spirit) of the Father and the Son, since the nature of the Trinity is one and incorporeal." - Origen de Principiis, 4.1.32
To read the entire text containing the above quotes online, go to Early Church Fathers After reading pg 7 of Should You Believe In The Trinity? and then reading the quotes above, do you feel that the WTS was in any way deceptive by using ?quotes? from these early Christian writers to support their teachings? If yes, then why does the WTS need to engage in deception if it teaches ?the Truth?? See Zeph 3:13 and Isa 28:15.
herk

Richie,
So, who here is defending the WTS? I, for one, don't agree with what they teach about Jesus. Even so, there's plenty of evidence that, no matter what the so-called "Church Fathers" believed and taught, the Bible itself does not teach the Trinity. The above quotes from the New Catholic Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Americana make that clear. So do many other reputable sources.
The American Constitution is 200 years old, and today there is disagreement among many over what some of its statements mean. The same is true of the Bible. Just a few hundred years after its completion the "Church Fathers" wrangled with each other over its meaning. If some of them believed Christ was God, so what? It's what the Bible itself says that matters, not what uninspired men said about it, even if they had made their comments while it was being written.
herk
herk
mustang

The real purpose of the tRINITY was to be a divisive device :)
It does little good and causes much grief. The early Church used it to flush out the people who could think for themselves and would not conform to the double-think/doublespeak/double-talk of the Priesthood class.
The minute the local thinker blurted out "1+1+1 equals 3, not 1; this is BULLS*&%", the brown-robed Priest raised his hand, snapped his fingers and the black hooded, bare-chested Inquisitor-class axeman came out of the wings and lopped his head off.
The brown-robed Priest smiled with satisfaction, went back to the rectory, poured some sacramental wine, filled out his time-slip (noting one heretic beheaded, in the proper column) and sent in his report to Rome.
And since people were killed in the name of the tRINITY, how can it be of God?? Satan is the one that wants us at each other?s throats. So, the tRINITY is more likely a machination of the Devil!!!
My ancestors have gone through this HOLY INQUISITION. That is why I was born in the USA, not Europe. I don?t have to swallow some doctrine to be politically correct or not get killed, anymore.
Mustang

All About The Trinity

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