All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

zen nudist

I posted this under another topic, but it is more approriate here:
1. there are three visions by people claiming to look into heaven. Daniel, Stephen, and John... all three to me show exactly the same thing, namely ONE who is seen as GOD alone, and another who Daniel calls the son of MAN, Stephen calls Jesus on the right hand of GOD and John sees as the Lamb who approaches the throne of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY as the lion of JUDAH... there are only two beings mentioned in all three cases, only ONE of these is seen as GOD and spoken of as GOD.... they say a picture is worth a thousand words but what are visions worth? then there is the point that in revelations the holy spirit is spoken of as 7 bowls of fire and the seven eyes of God, which seems a direct reference to the seven angels of God mentioned in the hebrew bible as the eyes of God which rove the earth.... there is no person ever seen in any vision as the holy ghost.
2. since most people accept as fact that the jews were among the few who had no trinity concept at all, there is an odd absence in that there is no one explaining this change of the nature of God to anyone in the bible anywhere... trinitarians assume different texts are proofs of the trinity that they already believe in, but no one in the bible ever taught them the trinity. the trinity is always a teaching outside the bible by people who already believe in it... this absence screams out to anyone who looks from a jewish point of view for the teacher of the trinity within the bible
3. the only verse which discusses the nature of God in context of other gods in the greek scripture as far as I can find is 1 cor 8:5-6, all others are out of context when it come to this topic.... and this verse quite clearly says that to us [believers], there is but ONE who is GOD, the father.
4. the verses that trinitarians are always saying proves their belief are always out of context when it comes to who god is. not one of them are about someone teaching someone else.
herk

zen,
Good points. I think it's of interest, too, that Trinitarians generally illustrate the Holy Spirit, not as a person, but as a dove.
herk
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
Your rebuttal to Deputy Dog is riddled with contradictions from previous post.
I sincerely hope I never contradicted myself.
Ellderwho said:
Your understanding of "free will" goes head to head with your presentation of "the Father who does the drawing" analogy.
IMHO you believe that, yes the father will draw you, but in the end you will have the final say.
How does this fit with what Paul describes us as humans.
How does this fit with what Jesus tells us is the process of being "born again"
Jesus clearly states "all that the Father has given me" none will be lost except the one so that scripture will be fullfilled" (paraphrasing)
Undis,
As scriptures teaches "we are dead" Now, if you are made "alive in the spirit" as you agree (by the drawing by the Father reference you made) how can you make yourself "dead again without spirit"?
If God chooses us, we cannot un-choose him.
If we do the "choosing of God" or it is left up to us we will always win out and reject God its our nature to reject him, we want the darkness " he came unto his own and his own did not recognize him"
And even when he does draw us and make us "heirs" we are still at war in the flesh as Paul states in Romans. The Lord appears to Paul, and in the end Paul battles greatly with the flesh. In utter disgust (I suppose)Paul exclaims "who will save me from this body of death" So here Paul has the "anointing of the Spirit" encounters the Lord Jesus himself and still doesnt know what to do with himself. Obivously the flesh wants no part of the Holy Spirit.
As you would have it our flesh nature can decide.Yes or No to the Holy Spirit.
But how do you explain Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10?
Hebrews 6:4-8 (NKJV): For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 10:26-31 (NKJV): For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Now, I believe that those Verses are talking about people who have NOT yet been Born Again, BUT who have been "Enlightened" by the Holy Spirit so that they can understand the Gospel.
How do you read those Verses?
Those people obviously have God's love, favor, and blessing (but not salvation yet) when they are "Enlightened" with the Truth of the Gospel, and then they must make a decision whether or not to repent and believe and be Born Again.
The Book of 1st John shows clearly that a person who has been Born Again CANNOT "fall away" to Hell, but Hebrews shows that persons who have been "Enlightened" and who have been "partakers of the Holy Spirit" CAN "fall away" to Hell.
Take for example King Saul: King Saul definitely had God's favor and blessing and even The Holy Spirit with him at first, but then King Saul turned evil and "fell away". So, King Saul was not Born Again, but he had been "Enlightened".
Ellderwho said:
Your refer to scriptures that state "all men come to him" yes thats true. But who comes? Only those drawn.
You brought up a good example although not in favor of your agrument about Manasseh. The verse shows he came to seek forgiveness, why? because one day he felt like it? No. The verse shows only after God "put him in afliction" did he seek the LORD.
But you used that verse to show Manassehs' free will. Its just not there.
If Manasseh did not have freedom to choose God, then why did God keep sending prophets to him?
I believe that Manasseh had been "Enlightened" for many years (because the Scriptures say that Manasseh knew that God existed), but was only "Born Again" when affliction came upon him from God.
Ellderwho said:
Isnt this [faith] a fruitage of the Spirit?
Who gives us the Faith?
God is the only "free agent."
Faith is a fruitage of the Spirit. God gives us faith. That is why no one can be saved until after The Holy Spirit has "Enlightened" them.
UnDisfellowshipped

The Bible shows that The Apostles and Disciples Prayed TO Jesus Christ as God:
2nd Corinthians 13:14: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. Amen. In that Verse, Paul prayed to THE HOLY TRINITY! 2nd Corinthians 12:8-10: Concerning this thing, I begged the Lord three times that it might depart from me. He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." Most gladly therefore I will rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest on me . Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then am I strong. Herk, who did Paul pray to in those Verses? I want to see your answer. Acts 7:59-60: They stoned Stephen as he called out, saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!" He kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, "Lord, don't hold this sin against them!" When he had said this, he fell asleep [in death]. Herk, who did Stephen pray to in those Verses?
1st John 5:11-15: The Testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life. He who doesn't have God's Son doesn't have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the Name of the Son of God. This is the boldness which we have toward Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He listens to us. And if we know that He listens to us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions which we have asked of Him. Herk, who is the Apostle John saying that we should make petitions to?
1st Timothy 1:12: And I thank Him who enabled me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because He counted me faithful, appointing me to service; Herk, who does the Apostle Paul give thanksgiving to?
1st Corinthians 1:2: to the congregation of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints [holy ones], with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours Herk, what does it mean to "Call on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ"? Herk, what does it mean to "Call on The Father"?
Romans 10:9-13: that if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart, one believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed." For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him. For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
Revelation 22:20-21: He who testifies these things says, "Yes, I come quickly." Amen! Yes, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints [holy ones]. Amen. Who did the Apostle John pray to in those Verses?
1st Corinthians 16:21-23: This greeting is by me, Paul, with my own hand. If any man doesn't love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed. Come, Lord! The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Who did the Apostle Paul pray to in those Verses?
2nd Thessalonians 3:16-18: Now may the Lord of peace Himself give you peace at all times in all ways. The Lord be with you all. The greeting of me, Paul, with my own hand, which is the sign in every letter: this is how I write. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. Who did Paul pray to in those Verses? And who does Paul pray to in the following Verses?
Romans 1:7: to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints [holy ones]: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 16:20:...The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Romans 16:24: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all! Amen. Galatians 6:18: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen. Philippians 4:23: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. 1st Thessalonians 1:1: Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, to the Congregation of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1st Thessalonians 5:28: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. Philemon 1:25: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit. Amen. Acts 1:21-26: "Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us in every time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John until the day in which He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection." And they nominated two: Joseph who is called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, "You, O Lord, Knower of all hearts, show whom You have chosen of these two" "to receive the portion in this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place." And they cast their lots. And the lot fell on Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven Apostles. Who did the Apostles pray to there?
UnDisfellowshipped

This is a reply to several of Herk's comments:
First, let's take a look at something interesting:
Compare these two statements made by Herk at different times in this Thread:
How conventient! Trinitarians have two definitions of God: (1) "God is a Trinity of Three Persons," and (2) "God means only the Father" or "God means only the Son." It's a bit arbitrary, don't you think, that you completely eliminated "God the Holy Spirit" from John 1:1?
Thomas did not call Jesus God the Son or refer to in the Trinitarian sense at all. Thomas was a Jew. He used a mode of expression common to the Old Testament in which accredited representatives of God are referred to as God. [...] Clearly Jesus was not himself "Very God" since he was to ascend to his God.
First Herk claims that Trinitarians are being "arbitrary" because they have different definitions of the word "God" in various Verses.
Then, later, Herk claims that whenever The Father is called "God" it MUST mean God Almighty, BUT NO, whenever The Son is called "God", it simply means that He was God's representative, and that it COULD NOT mean that He is God Almighty.
Isn't that a little "convenient" for YOU Herk?
Herk said:
If your beliefs are based "entirely" on what you "have read in the Scriptures," where did you read in the Scriptures that the One True God is "Three Persons"? Why not tell us where in the Bible you found the precise phrase "three persons"? Also, why not tell us where you found that the "name" of Jesus and the name of the Holy Spirit is "Yahweh (Jehovah)"?

Others of us have read the Bible several times cover-to-cover, and we've never found what you have found. So, did you actually find these ideas spelled out clearly in the Bible, or did you have to enlist some form of "logic" and "reason" to arrive at your conclusions?
Herk, even if the Trinity had been spelled out as clearly as you want it in the Bible (and I'm not sure you would have believed it then), it would still take some use of logic and understanding and knowledge and discernment to grasp the meaning. But, the most important thing is The Holy Spirit enlightening a person.
I have read in the Bible that:
(1) There is Only One True God by NATURE
(2) There is a Person called "The Father" who is called this One True God by Nature
(3) There is a Person called "The Son" who is called this One True God by Nature
(4) There is a Person called "The Spirit" who is called this One True God by Nature
(5) Logical conclusion: There are Three Persons who are One God by Nature.
I believe, if I am not mistaken, that I already posted the Scriptures where Jesus is called Yahweh (YHWH).
herk
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
When Jesus said "I and my Father are one," Trinitarians claim that he meant they are one God. But Jesus also prayed regarding his followers "that they may be one, as we are." (John 17:11)
Why do Trinitarians insist that John 10:30 means one God (one divine Being) but that John 17:11 means one in unity (not one being)? Jesus specifically said the oneness of his followers was exactly the same as the oneness between himself and his Father--"as we are."
You know what Herk? You may actually be right on this one point.
Jesus, at John 10:30, could very well have been referring to UNITY instead of Nature.
However, I personally believe He was referring to their Nature AND Unity because of the context.
The Jews who heard Him were very angry and accused Jesus of blasphemy for claiming to be equal with The Father.
That's not something that a person can just "misunderstand" very easily.
I mean, think about it: The Pharisees, experts at knowing what blasphemy was, misunderstanding so many of Jesus' statements???
The Pharisees tried to stone Jesus at least 3 times for claiming to be EQUAL with God!
John 10:33: The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
John 5:18: Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
John 8:58-59: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Did the Pharisees really get it that wrong 3 or more times?
I mean, of all the false accusations that the Pharisees would have come up with for their enemies, how many times do you think that they accused someone of saying they were equal to God?
UnDisfellowshipped

Has anyone noticed that Herk is saying, by that latest cartoon above, that the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John and the Disciple Stephen were actually following demons and making demons happy when they prayed to Jesus?
That is what Herk is saying by that cartoon -- that Paul and John and Stephen were serving demons by praying to Jesus!
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said to me:
Apparently truth hurts you to an extreme extent. Otherwise, why would you accuse me of hatred and name-calling, etc., when there's no evidence for it?
Truth can hurt a lot of people. In fact, truth SHOULD hurt people. It will also set them free.
Herk, I certainly have the quotes to prove your name-calling and hatred, but you know what? I am not going to post them, unless you really want me to, because I have already forgiven you for them.
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
The following are questions I've raised in this thread that you have not yet dealt with:
Well, I am here to "deal with" them now:
Herk said:
If the Trinity is such an important doctrine, why is there not even one speech or chapter in the entire Bible that discusses the subject in context?
God intends for Christians to read the entire New Testament and to base their doctrines on it.
For example, if a person were only to read John 14:14, they could very easily assume that they could pray for a new sports car and that Jesus would get it for them!
However, God intends for the Bible to interpret and explain itself, therefore, that person would need to read 1st John 5:14 to find out that Jesus only answers prayers that in harmony with HIS WILL.
My point is that you should base your beliefs on THE ENTIRE BIBLE, not just a few pet Verses.
Where in the Bible are we told that God is three Persons in One Nature?
There is no flat-out statement like that. This belief is taken from reading the ENTIRE New Testament.
Where in the Bible are we told that Christ is a God-Man with two natures?
I already posted all the Scriptures showing this very clearly.
The Bible says that Jesus knew all things, but it also says that Jesus had to learn things.
If knowledge of the Trinity is necessary for salvation, why is it that the average Christian finds it confusing and cannot explain it?
How many "average" Christians have you interviewed about the Trinity? Exactly what is an "average" Christian?
Why is it that the "average" Non-Trinitarian Christian cannot explain who created the Heavens and the Earth and finds it confusing?
Why do Trinitarians blame others when the real cause of confusion regarding the Trinity is their own disagreements and lack of logic when explaining their doctrine?
Herk, who is to blame for confusion about Jesus among NON-Trinitarians? What's your point?
Who is to blame for confusion about God in general?
Satan the Devil is the answer.
Where in the Bible does it clearly say, as you claim, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit bear the name Yahweh?
I have posted the Verses before, but I will post just a couple here:
Hebrews 1:10: And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands
That is from Psalms. That quote was a PRAYER TO YAHWEH (THE LORD) and the writer of Hebrews says that it was a statement made TO JESUS (THE LORD/YAHWEH).
Zechariah 3:2: And Yahweh said to Satan, "Yahweh rebuke you, O Satan; even Yahweh who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you: [is] not this a brand plucked out of the fire?"
There are at least TWO Persons named Yahweh in Zechariah 3:2.
I will post more about the Spirit being Yahweh soon.
Where do Trinitarians obtain authority to say that "God" sometimes means only the Father or the Son and at other times means all three members of the Trinity?
Where do you obtain the authority to say that "God" means Almighty when referring to The Father, but means God's representative when referring to Jesus?

All About The Trinity

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