All About The Trinity
by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible
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ozziepost
Shouldn't that be "showing disrespect to the Master"?
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ozziepost
I wasn't aware that Trinitarians don't pray to the Father?? I'll have to ask them.
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herk
UnD & Ozzie,
Nowhere does the Bible instruct us to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Christian?s Mediator and High Priest: "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities." (Hebrews 4:15)
Christ taught his disciples to pray to "Our Father," not to anyone else. (Matthew 6:9; Luke 11:2)
The apostle Paul did not pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit: "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 3:14)
The apostle Peter prayed to the Father: "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear." (1 Peter 1:17)
Also, Jesus said, "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:11-13) Jesus said our Heavenly Father knows what we need.
James said, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights," (James 1:17)
In Matthew 7, verse 11, we read, "How much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him?" It is obvious, from these scriptures, that we are taught to pray to our Heavenly Father.
Further proof of this can be found in John 16, verse 23 which says, "And in that day, ye shall ask me nothing." Christ himself is saying that we will not pray to him. He goes on in that same verse and says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it to you." And he said in verse 26: "At that day, ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you." He tells us to ask in his name because he is the one who paid the price to ransom all mankind from death, because he is the one who has access to the Father, and because he is willing to share his inheritance with us: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:17)
If we want our prayers to reach our heavenly Father, we must pray through, not to, the Mediator and High Priest he has given to us.
herk
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herk
UnD,
Herk, who did Stephen pray to in those Verses?
The context reveals why Stephen spoke to Jesus as he did. When you last prayed to Jesus, did you see him in a vision right in front of you? Jesus was in the company of Stephen, and Stephen was looking right at him. Such is not likely to be the situation each time someone prays to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit.
Herk, who is the Apostle John saying that we should make petitions to?
Several translations say "God" instead of "him" in 1 John 5:14. These include the Contemporary English Version, the NIV, the New Int'l Reader's Version, the Worldwide English Translation, and the Wycliffe Translation. Since you've already condemned these Bible versions as Satanic, there's not much more that I can say in answer to your question.
Herk, who does the Apostle Paul give thanksgiving to?
Again special circumstances are in the picture. Paul was personally selected by Jesus to be the apostle to the Gentiles. In a sense they worked together as Jesus stood near Paul and infused power into him when it was specially needed. (Philippians 4:13)
Herk, what does it mean to "Call on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ"?
We call upon Jesus as our Saviour and upon his sacrifice to cover our sins, and it in his name and by his authority that we have been commissioned to spread the gospel. But I have doubts that praying to Jesus is involved, in view of all that the Scriptures say to guide us in prayer. I also take issue with your claims regarding other texts. A brief exclamation in praise of or in thanksgiving for Christ is not necessarily a prayer addressed to him.
First Herk claims that Trinitarians are being "arbitrary" because they have different definitions of the word "God" in various Verses. Then, later, Herk claims that whenever The Father is called "God" it MUST mean God Almighty, BUT NO, whenever The Son is called "God", it simply means that He was God's representative, and that it COULD NOT mean that He is God Almighty.
Trinitarians most certainly are being arbitrary. They have absolutely no basis for taking it upon themselves to pontifically pronounce that in this verse "God" means "the Father" but in that verse "God" means the Trinity. On the other hand, it is the Bible itself that makes the distinction between "God" meaning the Almighty and "God" meaning his representative. To not see it that way, one must conclude that the angel, Moses, David and others were Almighty God, which is ridiculous. At any rate, this conclusion is borne out by the context whereas Trinitarians have nothing to guide them as they go about pronouncing their random definitions.
Herk, even if the Trinity had been spelled out as clearly as you want it in the Bible (and I'm not sure you would have believed it then), it would still take some use of logic and understanding and knowledge and discernment to grasp the meaning.
Kindly give us an example of how the Trinity meets the standards of logic and sound reason. The doctrine is so illogical that the average Trinitarian can't explain it let alone understand it.
(1) There is Only One True God by NATURE
(2) There is a Person called "The Father" who is called this One True God by Nature
(3) There is a Person called "The Son" who is called this One True God by Nature
(4) There is a Person called "The Spirit" who is called this One True God by Nature
(5) Logical conclusion: There are Three Persons who are One God by Nature.Not even one of your five points is stated in the Scriptures as clearly as you try to make them appear. If you cited the texts you have in mind, I could show you that they don't say what you think they say. It's utterly amazing how blind Trinitarians allow themselves to be when they read of God speaking thousands of times of himself as "I" and "me" (singular). In their blindness they give far more emphasis to a comparatively few verses that seem to say to them that others are also God.
I believe, if I am not mistaken, that I already posted the Scriptures where Jesus is called Yahweh (YHWH).
As I mentioned in another post, you've condemned translations that use "Yahweh." The KJV says "Jehovah." It seems you pick and choose at one time what you reject at another time. Very convenient, I'd say.
Lest you forget:
herk
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ozziepost
Nowhere does the Bible instruct us to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit.
But I wasn't aware that Trinitarians (label) would disagree with that.
BTW didn't Stephen at his martyrdom cry out to Jesus?
ozzie
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ellderwho
Undisfellowshipped;
Ellderwho said:
Your understanding of "free will" goes head to head with your presentation of "the Father who does the drawing" analogy.
IMHO you believe that, yes the father will draw you, but in the end you will have the final say.
How does this fit with what Paul describes us as humans.
How does this fit with what Jesus tells us is the process of being "born again"
Jesus clearly states "all that the Father has given me" none will be lost except the one so that scripture will be fullfilled" (paraphrasing)
Undis,
As scriptures teaches "we are dead" Now, if you are made "alive in the spirit" as you agree (by the drawing by the Father reference you made) how can you make yourself "dead again without spirit"?
If God chooses us, we cannot un-choose him.
If we do the "choosing of God" or it is left up to us we will always win out and reject God its our nature to reject him, we want the darkness " he came unto his own and his own did not recognize him"
And even when he does draw us and make us "heirs" we are still at war in the flesh as Paul states in Romans. The Lord appears to Paul, and in the end Paul battles greatly with the flesh. In utter disgust (I suppose)Paul exclaims "who will save me from this body of death" So here Paul has the "anointing of the Spirit" encounters the Lord Jesus himself and still doesnt know what to do with himself. Obivously the flesh wants no part of the Holy Spirit.
As you would have it our flesh nature can decide.Yes or No to the Holy Spirit.
In the above quotes of myself I have given you examples that challenge your presentation of "born-again." Then you jump to other scriptures Heb. 1John, 2Chron.
But how do you explain Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10?
Hebrews 6:4-8 (NKJV): For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 10:26-31 (NKJV): For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Now, I believe that those Verses are talking about people who have NOT yet been Born Again, BUT who have been "Enlightened" by the Holy Spirit so that they can understand the Gospel.
How do you read those Verses?
If I'm your christain brother, can you restore me in the spirit?
Those people obviously have God's love, favor, and blessing (but not salvation yet) when they are "Enlightened" with the Truth of the Gospel, and then they must make a decision whether or not to repent and believe and be Born Again.
As the Father sees down the "corridor of time" and "draws" one to his Son, I think God knows what he's doing. But you haved turned God into a spectator waiting and wondering if the one he draws is going to respond or not. You are putting God in a box, on your terms. We're told in Romans, we as humans have no excuse as to who or what God is and has done by the examples of creation itself.
Your refer to scriptures that state "all men come to him" yes thats true. But who comes? Only those drawn.
You brought up a good example although not in favor of your agrument about Manasseh. The verse shows he came to seek forgiveness, why? because one day he felt like it? No. The verse shows only after God "put him in afliction" did he seek the LORD.
But you used that verse to show Manassehs' free will. Its just not there.
If Manasseh did not have freedom to choose God, then why did God keep sending prophets to him?
I believe that Manasseh had been "Enlightened" for many years (because the Scriptures say that Manasseh knew that God existed), but was only "Born Again" when affliction came upon him from God.
Look at the verse again;
10And the LORD spoke to Manasseh and his people, but they would not listen. 11Therefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the army of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh with £ hooks, bound him with bronze fetters, and carried him off to Babylon. 12Now when he was in affliction, he implored the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, 13and prayed to Him; and He received his entreaty, heard his supplication, and brought him back to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD was God. (NKJV)
The verses tells us God spoke to him but he would not listen. So the LORD sent armies to take him(no choice here). Could the armies choose if they were going to do Gods will? Why was he in affliction? Did he make himself suffer? Did he have himself in "hooks" and fetters? Did he carry himself to Babylon? I think the answer is obvious. Why would God bother with Manasseh? If God can see down the "time line" he would have known the outcome would'nt he? In the end God always has his will done. Not the persons (will) he draws.If Manasseh did not have freedom to choose God, then why did God keep sending prophets to him?
You keep saying Manasseh has a choice. Show where his choices are. 11Therefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the army of the king of Assyria, who took Manasseh with £ hooks, bound him with bronze fetters, and carried him off to Babylon. God is the only "free agent." E -
herk
ozzie,
BTW didn't Stephen at his martyrdom cry out to Jesus?
As I mentioned above:
The context reveals why Stephen spoke to Jesus as he did. When you last prayed to Jesus, did you see him in a vision right in front of you? Jesus was in the company of Stephen, and Stephen was looking right at him. Such is not likely to be the situation each time someone prays to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit.
Stephen's frame of mind was that God had placed Jesus as his Savior, Lord, Master and Teacher. Jesus was the Head of the church that he was serving by appointment. Any number of reasons can be given for Stephen's inclination to speak to someone who was such a large and perceptible part of his life. Additionally, his outcry was a testimony to his persecutors that Jesus had indeed been raised back to life.
It seems to me that Trinitarians are generally in the habit of reading into the Bible what is not there. Jesus said we should pray to the Father, but in their effort to raise Jesus to equality with Almighty God the Father, Trinitarians believe they've found a loophole here and there that authorizes them to disobey Jesus' precise instructions on how to pray.
It amazes me that, despite the testimony of the Scriptures that God is One, that he is a "he" and not a "they," Trinitarians go all through their lives holding on to an unproven theory that doesn't even make sense to the God-given human mind--a theory that most of them have a most difficult time trying to explain.
herk
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