All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

ellderwho

For example, scholar Gregory Boyd has conceded that the echad argument is totally useless for Trinitarian purposes
The following is and excerpt from Gregory Boyds mission statement.
Humans and angels are free moral agents who decide their own destinies and to some extent affect other beings.
Okay Gregory Boyd has an opinion on serveral issues such as free will. Yet another "scholar" turning God into a spectator.
Echad signifies mathematical oneness just as much as yachid does
Then why was yachid not used in the referenced texts? Like Nu. 13:33?
The context must determine whether a numerical or unified singularity is intended.
Nu. 13:33 "they cut down one(echad) cluster of grapes"
Then lets ask the question; what is the numerical value of a cluster of grapes?
In the above case with Dr. Boyds understanding would the correct word be "yachid"
The sense of plurality belongs, not to echad, but to the compound noun attached to it.
God, cluster of grapes, flesh. echad= united one or a compsite unity
According to Koehler and Baumgartner's Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, the fundamental definition of echad is "one single."
Gen 2:24 "a man shall leave his wife; and they shall become one(echad) flesh."
So Adam and Eve are "one single" ??
So it is incorrect to say that echad has the basic meaning of "compound unity." If anything, it stresses singularity and individuality.
Herk says:
but the plural members of the Trinity are said to be One Being or Godhead.
I say;
the name(singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
He did not say names(plural)
Again does the scripture state " in the name of the Fathers and of the Sons and of the Holy Spirits.?
No it does not! Its singular!
Then you state:
There is a much better explanation for why ?name? is used in the singular.
Which is it plural or singular?
E
hooberus

Where in the Bible are we told that God is three Persons in One Nature?

Where in the Bible are we told that God is one person in One Nature?
Where do Trinitarians obtain authority to say that "God" sometimes means only the Father or the Son and at other times means all three members of the Trinity?
Trinitarians believe that Theos means "God." Trinitarians believe that depending on context "God" can refer to various persons. For example at John 20:28 Theos means "God," and refers to the person of the Son.
hooberus

Where in the Bible does it clearly say, as some claim, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit bear the name Yahweh?
Here are some (there are more) that show that Jesus bears the name YHWH and other divine names (sech as adonai) ( Note: "LORD" all capitals =YHWH Hebrew)
the LORD of hosts
"In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts. Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar: And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged. Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed." Isaiah 6:1-10
"Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:" John 12:39-42
the LORD of hosts
"Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken." Isaiah 8:13-15
"Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." 1 Peter 2:7-8
the LORD of hosts

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6
"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death."Revelation 1:17-18
the Lord of lords
"For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deuteronomy 10:17
"That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;" 1 Timothy 6:14-15

the Lord of lords
"O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever. O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever." Psalm 136:1-3
"These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful." Revelation 17:14
The LORD who laid the foundation of the earth, and who's hands the heavens are the work of. (note: this must be the LORD alone see Isaiah 44:24) "When the people are gathered together, and the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. He weakened my strength in the way; he shortened my days. I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end." Psalm 102:22-27 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail." Hebrews 1:10-12 the LORD for whom the way was prepared for. "The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." Isaiah 40:3 "For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight." Matthew 3:3 the Lord (ha adon) who comes to his temple (note: ha adon refers exclusively to Jehovah see appendix 1971 edition NWT.) "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts." Malachi 3:1 "But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet. For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee." Matthew 11:9-10 the LORD our Lord (adonai), who is praised by the mouth of babes and sucklings "O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger." Psalm 8:1-2 "And when the chief priests and scribes saw the wonderful things that he did, and the children crying in the temple, and saying, Hosanna to the Son of David; they were sore displeased, And said unto him, Hearest thou what these say? And Jesus saith unto them, Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?" Matthew 21:15-16 the LORD who is from everlasting. "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting." Psalm 93:1-2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place." Psalm 68:17
"For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many." Isaiah 66:15-16
"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
the LORD God who comes with all his saints
"And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee." Zechariah 14:5
"To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints." 1Thessalonians 3:13
The LORD who's feet will stand on the mount of Olives
"Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, . . . " Zechariah 14:3-4
"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey." Acts 1:11-12
the LORD who searches the hearts and reigns, to give to every man according to his works. (Note: the LORD alone does this see 1 Kings 8:39) "I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings." Jeremiah 17:10 "And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works." Revelation 2:23 the LORD who is God and Lord "This thou hast seen, O LORD: keep not silence: O Lord, be not far from me. Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord." Psalm 35:22-23 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:28-29
the LORD who redeems from all iniquities
"Let Israel hope in the LORD: for with the LORD there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities." Psalm 130:7-8
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." Titus 2:13-14
the LORD who was pierced
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." Zechariah 12:10
the LORD on whos name we call for salvation
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." Joel 2:32

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:9-13
hooberus

Where in the Bible are we told that Christ is a God-Man with two natures, an appellation that strikingly resembles the grotesque gods of pagan mythology?

Where in the Bible are we told that Christ is only a man, and has no other nature?
hooberus

By the way herk, earlier you posted an illustaration which misrepresented the beliefs of Trinitarians:
Trinitarains do not believe that Jesus is "half-man, half-god hybrid"
LittleToe

Ellderwho:
Keep at him, you've got him on the ropes, with this one.
He tried sliding out of trouble, and deflecting the topic again, as you so astutely observed.
Personally I don't care whether he's Trinitarian or Unitarian. It's his deceit and evasiveness that bother me.
Ozzie:
So very true.
He doesn't tend to answer those kind of questions, though. For example, for some months now I've been asking him of his "brush with the Holy Spirit", of which he has come forth with nothing.
plmkrzy

you know...it makes it VERY HARD TO READ when the threads are screwed up!
ellderwho

Herk, you reference A.T. Robertson, I'll have to check the quote.where you say:
"there is a much better explanation for why the "name" is used in the singular"
this is misleading of A.T.Robertson. You are suggesting that this is his point. Robertson simply says the "name" means authority indicates nothing about singularity. This is you putting words in Robertsons' mouth. Your logic clashes with with your statements earlier.
Herk; but the plural members of the Trinity are said to be One Being or Godhead.
First you said that its referred to in the plural, then you refer to it in the singular. Which way do you want it?
There is a much better explanation for why ?name? is used in the singular. A.T. Robertson, in his Word Pictures of the New Testament, points out that the use of "in the name" here means "by the authority." There are many examples of this meaning. Deuteronomy 18:5, 7, speaks of serving in the ?name? (or, by the authority) of the Lord.
I also would like to reference A.T. Robertson; Matthew 28:19 ;
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
All the nations (panta ta eqnh). Not just the Jews scattered among the Gentiles, but the Gentiles themselves in every land. And not by making Jews of them, though this point is not made plain here. It will take time for the disciples to grow into this Magna Charta of the missionary propaganda. ................This program includes making disciples or learners (maqhteusate) such as they were themselves. That means evangelism in the fullest sense and not merely revival meetings. Baptism in (eiß, not into) the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in the name of the Trinity.
I suppose A.T. Robertson is on board.
Look at What A.T. Robertson say about Phil.2:6;
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Being (uparcwn). Rather, "existing," present active participle of uparcw. In the form of God (en morph qeou). Morph means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ. A prize (arpagmon). Predicate accusative with hghsato. Originally words in -moß signified the act, not the result (-ma). The few examples of arpagmoß (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to arpagma, like baptismoß and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery"). To be on an equality with God (to einai isa qeoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of hghsato, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case qewi after isa). Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with einai as in Revelation 21:16. Emptied himself (eauton ekenwse). First aorist active indicative of kenow, old verb from kenoß, empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible. He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Kenosiß doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man. It is here that men should show restraint and modesty, though it is hard to believe that Jesus limited himself by error of knowledge and certainly not by error of conduct.
Remember that argument about " being equal with God" You seemed to put the spin on that verse that would lead us to believe Christ was not "grasping" at equality with God. Remember?
Lets see what A.T. Robertson says about Col.1:16;
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
All things (ta panta). The universe as in Romans 11:35, a well-known philosophical phrase. It is repeated at the end of the verse. In him were created (en autwi ektisqh). Paul now gives the reason (oti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (Romans 16). It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisqh (from ktizw, old verb, to found, to create (Romans 1:25). This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in John 1:3; Hebrews 1:2 and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy. The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth. God wrought through "the Son of his love." All earthly dignities are included. Have been created (ektistai). Perfect passive indicative of ktizw, "stand created," "remain created." The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe. Through him (di autou). As the intermediate and sustaining agent. He had already used en autwi (in him) as the sphere of activity. And unto him (kai eiß auton). This is the only remaining step to take and Paul takes it (1 Corinthians 15:28) See Ephesians 1:10 for similar use of en autwi of Christ and in Colossians 1:19; Colossians 20 again we have en autwi, di autou, eiß auton used of Christ. See Hebrews 2:10 for di on (because of whom) and di ou (by means of whom) applied to God concerning the universe (ta panta). In Romans 11:35 we find ex autou kai di autou kai eiß auton ta panta referring to God. But Paul does not use ex in this connection of Christ, but only en, dia, and eiß. See the same distinction preserved in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (ex of God, dia, of Christ).
Lets see what A.T. Robertson says about Heb 1:10;
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Lord (Kurie). In the LXX, not in the Hebrew. Quotation (the sixth) from Psalms 102:26-28 through verses Hebrews 1:10-12. Note emphatic position of su here at the beginning as in verses Hebrews 11-12 (su de). This Messianic Psalm pictures the Son in his Creative work and in his final triumph. Hast laid the foundation (eqemeliwsaß). First aorist active of qemeliow, old verb from qemelioß (foundation) for which see Colossians 1:23.
A.T. Robertson says the Son creates and triumphs. Didnt you say Heb 1:10 did not represent Christ creating but that it was a reference to laying the foundation of the New Covenant.
E
zen nudist

after I stopped being a christian, I realized something about this STUPID trinity debate.... from the outside looking in, what difference does it make if you call Jesus, God or the son of God, the appointed king over all creation?
both are spirit beings supposedly right now, both are invisible, both rule from heaven...but are respected by JW and trinitarian as Absolute authorities of equal weight.
BTW, I also notice a great con job.....
the issue of a human king comes to the fore in the time of Samuel, even though provisions supposedly existed in the law, Samuel is saddened by the people wanting a physical flesh and blood king like all the other nations.
God tells him that it is he that has been rejected not Samuel and tells him to appoint Saul.
later Saul turns out to be a reject in the eyes of God and so he appoints David and when David turns out to be a man after God's own heart, he promises David that there will never be a time when a king from his line does not sit upon the throne....
so if Jesus is the king that is promised to David, God stole the throne back to heaven, and essentially mislead all of Israel and was very deceptive with his promises...as there is no longer any visible flesh and blood king on earth as was promised and which was the whole point of having a king in the first place.
talk about being screwed....
but if you read Genesis carefully, it says that the Kings would come from the line of Judah, and that shows that Genesis was written AFTER the time of David or else that God lied his ass off when he picked Saul in the first place, knowing full well that he had already said it would be from Judah not Benjamin.
UnDisfellowshipped

Zen Nudist said:
after I stopped being a christian,
Were you ever truly a Christian? Were you ever Born Again? Did you experience The Holy Spirit living inside of you? Did you ever have a close, personal relationship with Jesus Christ?
Zen Nudist said:
I realized something about this STUPID trinity debate.... from the outside looking in, what difference does it make if you call Jesus, God or the son of God, the appointed king over all creation?
both are spirit beings supposedly right now, both are invisible, both rule from heaven...but are respected by JW and trinitarian as Absolute authorities of equal weight.
Zen, the difference is, there is only One Jesus Christ that actually died for you -- only ONE.
If a person is putting their faith in Michael the Archangel for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in Gabriel for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in a human prophet (true or false prophet) for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in the brother of Lucifer for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in God The Father alone for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in Allah for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in "The Grand Architect of the Universe" (GAOTU) for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in "a Jesus" who did not come in Human Flesh, for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in "a Jesus" who did not rise from the dead in Human Flesh, for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
If a person is putting their faith in David Koresh for salvation, they are on the road to Hell.
Because NONE of the above died for your sins.
Only the True Jesus Christ, the Almighty Creator God of the Bible, died for your sins.
The most important thing of all, is having a close, personal relationship with JESUS and being reconciled with God The Father and having The Holy Spirit live inside of your heart.
Notice what Christ Himself said:
John 17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Jesus said that it is EQUALLY important to KNOW God The Father AND Jesus Christ, and that this IS Eternal Life!
In other words, if you do not KNOW the True Father and the True Son of the Bible, you do not have Eternal Life.

All About The Trinity

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