All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped 287 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk said to me:

    That statement says a great deal about your respect and regard for other Trinitarians who produced some of those translations. It also says much about your Christianity or lack thereof. I now see a bitterness and spitefulness that I hadn't noticed before.

    Herk, I do not have any intentional bitterness and spitefulness toward people. I do have some "righteous indignation".

    Herk, which Bible translations do you prefer to use? If you let me know which you want to use, then I will use those in my discussions with you.

    For example, when I talk to JW's, I use the New World Translation.

    So, which translations do you like to use -- I'm flexible -- I can use them in our discussions.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day Undif,

    With all due respect, why bother? This is like scripture "ping pong". It's very unlikely that anyone will ever come to a faith in Jesus through being won over the Trinity issue.

    Jesus knows his own and he'll call them.

    God bless.

    Ozzie

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk, here are some of the translations which say, at 1st Timothy 3:16, that God became Human (just to show you that it is not only from the King James Version):

    English Majority Text Version: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the Gentiles, believed on in the world, and was received up in glory.

    The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible: And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in flesh, was justified in Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

    World English Bible: Without controversy, the mystery of godliness is great: God was revealed in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, And received up in glory.

    Third Millennium Bible: And beyond controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    1898 Young's Literal Translation: and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety--God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

    Analytical-Literal Translation: And confessedly, great is the secret [or, mystery] of godliness: God was revealed in flesh, justified [or, shown to be righteous] in spirit [or, by [the] Spirit], seen by angels, preached among [the] nations [or, Gentiles], believed on in [the] world, taken up in glory!

    1889 Darby Bible: And confessedly the mystery of piety is great. God has been manifested in flesh, has been justified in the Spirit, has appeared to angels, has been preached among the nations, has been believed on in the world, has been received up in glory.

    1833 Webster Bible: And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached to the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Tyndale 1534--God was shewed in the flesche.

    Great Bible 1539--God was shewed in the flesche.

    Geneva N.T. 1557--God is shewed in the flesche.

    Bishops' Bible in 1568--God was shewed manifestly in the flesh.

    Haweis--God was manifested in flesh.

    Young 1862--God was manifested in flesh.

    Do you use any of those translations, Herk? Do you have anything against using any of those?

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Hi Ozzie,

    Good day to you as well.

    You said:

    With all due respect, why bother? This is like scripture "ping pong". It's very unlikely that anyone will ever come to a faith in Jesus through being won over the Trinity issue.

    Jesus knows his own and he'll call them.

    The reason why I bother, is because Jesus Christ through the Apostles, commanded all Christians to defend the faith, and to refute false teachings, and to preach the truth.

    Ephesians 5: 8-11 (NKJV): For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth), finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them.

    I do it out of love for others -- I love people like Herk, Joseph Malik, and AGuest, and I try to obey the Lord Jesus and reason with them using the Scriptures:

    Acts 17:2-4: Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, "This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ." And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

    Acts 17: 10-12: Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.

    Acts 18:4: And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

    Also, Ozzie, the number one thing that caused me to leave the Watchtower Society was that I found out from the Scriptures that Jesus is God Almighty.

    And, the turning point in the life of the Apostle Thomas was when he realized that Jesus was GOD:

    John 20:28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    The turning point in the life of the Apostle Paul was when it was revealed to him that Jesus was God:

    Acts 9: 3-6: As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, "Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?" And he said, "Who are You, Lord?" Then the Lord said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads." So he, trembling and astonished, said, "Lord, what do You want me to do?" Then the Lord said to him, "Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."

    Notice: Paul knew that it was THE Lord that appeared to him, but Paul wanted to know WHO the Lord is, and when The Lord answered and said "I AM JESUS", Paul was then trembling and astonished!

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk,

    What is your explanation of Colossians 2:9?

    1901 American Standard Version: for in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

    New International Version: For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

    International Standard Version: For in him the whole fullness of God lives in bodily form.

    New American Standard Bible: For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

    Revised Standard Version: For in him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

    New Revised Standard Version: For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

    The Literal Translation of The Holy Bible: For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

    World English Bible: For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,

    English Majority Text Version: For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;

    Good News Translation: For the full content of divine nature lives in Christ, in his humanity,

    GOD'S WORD Translation: All of God lives in Christ's body,

    New Living Translation: For in Christ the fullness of God lives in a human body,

    English Standard Version: For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

    Third Millennium Bible: For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

    New Century Version: All of God lives in Christ fully (even when Christ was on earth),

    Holman Christian Standard Bible: For in Him the entire fullness of God's nature dwells bodily,

    Analytical-Literal Translation: Because in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead [or, Deity] bodily,

    1889 Darby Bible: For in him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily;

    1899 Douay-Rheims Bible: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally.

    1833 Webster Bible: For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

    1898 Young's Literal Translation: because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

    1912 Weymouth New Testament: For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,

    1965 Bible in Basic English: For in him all the wealth of God's being has a living form,

    Worldwide English New Testament: Christ has everything that God has.

    Wycliffe New Testament: For in him dwelleth body-like all the fullness of the Godhead.

    Wesley's New Testament: For it is in Christ that the fulness of God's nature dwells embodied, and in Him you are made complete,

    Amplified Bible: For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature].

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk,

    What is your explanation of Philippians 2:6:

    International Standard Version: In God's own form existed he, And shared with God equality, Deemed nothing needed grasping.

    1899 Douay-Rheims Bible: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    English Majority Text Version: who, existing in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

    GOD'S WORD Translation: Although he was in the form of God and equal with God, he did not take advantage of this equality.

    The Literal Translation of The Holy Bible: who subsisting in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

    "The Message" Translation: He had equal status with God but didn't think so much of himself that he had to cling to the advantages of that status no matter what.

    World English Bible: who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God,

    1833 Webster Bible: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    1898 Young's Literal Translation: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal to God,

    Third Millennium Bible: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,

    New Living Translation: Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God.

    Amplified Bible: Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Ozzie, you made a good point earlier in this Thread about Herk's posting of pictures all over this Thread and others --- words are what is important!

    The Bible was written in words -- not pictures -- in fact the Bible condemns anyone who makes a picture of God.

    So, Herk has been breaking that commandment by posting pictures of God.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk said:

    Further proof of this can be found in John 16, verse 23 which says, "And in that day, ye shall ask me nothing." Christ himself is saying that we will not pray to him. He goes on in that same verse and says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it to you." And he said in verse 26: "At that day, ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you." He tells us to ask in his name because he is the one who paid the price to ransom all mankind from death, because he is the one who has access to the Father, and because he is willing to share his inheritance with us: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:17)

    If we want our prayers to reach our heavenly Father, we must pray through, not to, the Mediator and High Priest he has given to us.

    Jesus did indeed tell us to pray to The Father. Every Trinitarian I have ever known of has prayed to The Father.

    And, what about John 16:23?

    Jesus is saying that the Apostles will no longer ask Him questions about what He taught because they will KNOW what He taught -- notice these Verses:

    John 16:19: Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

    John 15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

    John 16:26: These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

    John 16:13: Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Ellderwho,

    You have brought up some good points about whether or not we have freedom. I will address them as soon as I can.

    This is the bottom line, as far as I believe:

    The Bible says:

    * God is absolutely sovereign -- nothing can happen without Him either (1) causing it or (2) allowing it to happen.

    * God knows all things -- past, present, and future.

    * All people are born in sin, separated from God, on the way to Hell, and they are slaves of Satan and cannot even understand the Gospel without being enlightened by The Spirit.

    * God chooses who He wants to draw to Jesus for salvation (some people are NOT drawn at all).

    * The Holy Spirit then enlightens and convicts of sin those whom The Father draws.

    * A person can only be saved after he (a) reads the Gospel, or (b) hears the Gospel, or (c) has the Gospel revealed to him by Divine Revelation.

    * A person can then choose whether or not to reject Christ (Hebrews Chapter 6 and Chapter 10)

    * God desires that ALL men be saved and come to have knowledge of the truth of the Gospel.

    * Jesus Christ died for ALL men, and WHOSOEVER truly believes in Him will be saved.

    Also, notice these Verses:

    Matthew 22:1-14: A nd Jesus answered and spoke to them again by parables and said: "The kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who arranged a marriage for his son, and sent out his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding; and they were not willing to come. Again, he sent out other servants, saying, 'Tell those who are invited, "See, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and fatted cattle are killed, and all things are ready. Come to the wedding."' But they made light of it and went their ways, one to his own farm, another to his business. And the rest seized his servants, treated them spitefully, and killed them. But when the king heard about it, he was furious. And he sent out his armies, destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then he said to his servants, 'The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.' So those servants went out into the highways and gathered together all whom they found, both bad and good. And the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, *take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called, but few are chosen."

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Ellderwho,

    Also, these Verses in Romans Chapter 2 show that humans can reject God, even after The Holy Spirit is leading them to repent:

    Romans 2:1-11: T herefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "will render to each one according to his deeds": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

    Also, 2nd Peter Chapter 2 shows clearly that people who have been enlightened (but not Born Again), and for whom Christ died, and whom were BOUGHT by Christ, can turn away to Hell:

    2 Peter 2:1-3: B ut there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.

    Also, God did not want Cain to sin, and God even warned Cain not to sin, but Cain went ahead and murdered Abel anyway:

    Genesis 4: 6-8: So the L ord said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it." Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

    The Bible says that God does not desire that ANYONE should perish, not even wicked ones, and that God desires that everyone should repent:

    Ezekiel 33:11: Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord G od , 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

    2 Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    Lamentations 3:33: For He does not afflict willingly, Nor grieve the children of men.

    Acts 26:20: but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do works befitting repentance.

    The Bible teaches that God loves all people, even those who hate Him and make themselves enemies of His:

    Matthew 5:43-48: "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

    Luke 6: 27-36: "But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. " But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

    The Bible shows that Jesus gives people time to repent, and then they have freedom to choose whether or not to repent:

    Revelation 2:20-23: Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to *repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

    The Bible clearly teaches that not everything that happens is the will of God:

    Romans 12:2: And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

    Matthew 7: 21-23: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit