Realist, On Israel

by Yerusalyim 95 Replies latest social current

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  Realist

  ok guys you win...i am too tired of this BS.

  just to set the record straight one last time:

  black,

  What Bukey succeeds in doing to a remarkable degree is subjecting yesterday?s and today?s Austrian rationales to analyses that utterly demolish them. If anything, his findings demonstrate that during the Nazi era Austrians were even more vicious, hysterical, and pathologically violent than suggested in previous literature. Moreover, Bukey suggests that throughout their history Austrians have been an especially contentious and quarrelsome lot, even by Central European standards"

  throughout history! LOL that was a good one! would like to see the facts on which this is based! LOL

  In any case...i wrote something about austria's involvment somewhere earlier in this thread. if you are so kind read it and tell me where i said austria was against hitler in the beginning!

  did i say austria was a victim?! BULLSHIT! i am well aware of what happened and that most austrians supported him in the beginning and i stated exactly that!!!

  also read this:

  http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Holocaust/austriaannex.html

  all germans were mesmerized by hitler? who says so? do you think all people were mesmerized by hussein or stalin? there is very little you can do in a dictatorship without risking your own life. and although it would be nice if all people were heros only a very few actually are (on all sides!).

  so how did hitler gain control...here is the story in short:

  Although Adolf Hitler had the support of certain sections of the German population he never gained an elected majority. The best the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) could do in a election was 37.3 per cent of the vote they gained in July 1932. When Hitler became chancellor in January 1933, the Nazis only had a third of the seats in the Reichstag.

  Soon after Adolf Hitler became chancellor he announced new elections. Hermann Goering called a meeting of important industrialists where he told them that the 1933 General Election could be the last in Germany for a very long time. Goering added that the NSDAP would need a considerable amount of of money to ensure victory. Those present responded by donating 3 million Reichmarks. As Joseph Goebbels wrote in his diary after the meeting: "Radio and press are at our disposal. Even money is not lacking this time."

  Behind the scenes Goering, who was minister of the interior in Hitler's government, was busily sacking senior police officers and replacing them with Nazi supporters. These men were later to become known as the Gestapo. Goering also recruited 50,000 members of the Sturm Abteilung (SA) to work as police auxiliaries.

  Hermann Goering then raided the headquarters of the Communist Party (KPD) in Berlin and claimed that he had uncovered a plot to overthrow the government. Leaders of the KPD were arrested but no evidence was ever produced to support Goering's accusations. He also announced he had discovered a communist plot to poison German milk supplies.

  Just before the election was due to take place someone set fire to the Reichstag. A young man from the Netherlands, Marianus van der Lubbe, was arrested and eventually executed for the crime. As a teenager Lubbe had been a communist and Goering used this information to claim that the Reichstag Fire was part of a KPD plot to overthrow the government.

  Hitler gave orders that all leaders of the German Communist Party should "be hanged that very night." Paul von Hindenburg vetoed this decision but did agree that Hitler should take "dictatorial powers". KPD candidates in the election were arrested and Hermann Goering announced that the Nazi Party planned "to exterminate" German communists.

  Thousands of members of the Social Democrat Party and Communist Party were arrested and sent to recently opened to concentration camp. They were called this because they "concentrated" the enemy into a restricted area. Hitler named these camps after those used by the British during the Boer War.

  besides you put yourself in a dilemma here....on one side you condemn racism on the other you foster the view that the holocaust could happen only in germany plus austria because these people and only these people are...what?

  how many people do you propose were actually involved in killing jews? a very small percentage of the population is required at key positions to perform something like that.

  you are telling me one couldn't find these individuals in the US? HAHA!

  if a more radical person would have won during the great depression (which was not as bad in the US as it was in germany also due to the war and embargo) than of course the same thing could have happened. and it can still happen everywhere on this planet under the "right" circumstances.

  also i NEVER compared the riots to the holocaust! once again you were unable to understand what i actually said (probably my mistake!). the riots just show that there are tentions in the US between the racial groups that could easily be exploitet by unscrupulous politicians if the economical situation would deteriorate.

  also do you really think it would have been especially hard to convince members of a slave owning society that killing blacks is a good thing? i doubt it. the US like any other country has its share of racism and blind people following a wrong leadership.

  L_A_big whatever...,

  i am an antisemite? based on what? because i state what is happening to the palestinians is a crime? because i state the obvious which is that israel has a very strong jewish lobby in the US? if stating facts makes me an antisemite than so be it.

  Didn't this whole Israel issue see it's genesis from those survivors attempting to make sure that what happened to them from a previous Anti-Semitic Austrian wouldn't happen again?

  it actually started in vienna in the late 19th century long before the holocaust.

  avishai,

  It's laughable to think that the world, is controlled by a religion that has less than double the members of the JW's.

  again...no one says the world is controlled by jews. but jews do have a very strong influence on US politics, media and economy. and yes they do support each other which includes israel (unquestionably a very understandable behavior).

  a hand full of arabs might have a lot of money but what influence do these people have on US politics? hardly any. most of them are relying on US protection.

  Trying to steal land that they paid the owners of, fair and square, a tiny bit of land that was almost all arid, and unused before they got it.

  i posted the statistics on landowner ship before 1947. you cannot say that jews paid for the land. a uge percentage was simply occupied.

  So that they can continue to agitae? World domination? How about survival, folks. Survival. Survival from this kind of rhetoric on acct. of one incident. Grow up.

  fighting for survival is more than understandable...but you have to see the palestinian side in this as well. these guys had nothing to do with the holocaust or whatever. how come they have to pay the price for it?

  all rights that it...have fun guys!
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  avishai

  Realist, you actually had some good points there. The palestinians ahd nothing to do w/ the holocaust.
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  concerned mama

  Avishai,
  

  Yup, I agree with you.

  If I was Jewish, I would want ONE country in the world where I felt the government would not turn their backs on me because they are Jewish, too. My daughter has many Jewish friends, and many of these kids have lost extended family in the holocaust. The threat of genocide remains very real to them.

  I haven't read this whole thread, but I have to say that in my opinion, as an outsider, a non-JW, a lot of JWs and ex JWs do come across as anti-semitic. Not all of you, of course, I just sort of got a whiff of it.
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  blacksheep

  all germans were mesmerized by hitler? who says so? do you think all people were mesmerized by hussein or stalin? there is very little you can do in a dictatorship without risking your own life. and although it would be nice if all people were heros only a very few actually are (on all sides!).

  Guess you haven't seen the films of Hitlers big pep rallies, attended to but literally thousands of adoring Germans, bringing their children/babies, eyes glowing, at the impressive goosestepping of the Nazi regime. Hard to fathom that if so many Germans opposed him, they'd be showing up in droves, eyes gleaming at his words and extravaganza-like display of military power.

  And no, not furthering the racisms against Austrians: just pointing out the obvious disconecting logic of someone who so ardently believes in the ferocious "instigation" of Israeli attacks upon the "innocent" Palestinians. Just pointing out the fact that you, yourself, seem to be a victim of your own national bias.

  if a more radical person would have won during the great depression (which was not as bad in the US as it was in germany also due to the war and embargo) than of course the same thing could have happened. and it can still happen everywhere on this planet under the "right" circumstances. Oh, so now blaming the "GREAT DEPRESSION" for the Germanic/Austrian genocide of Jews. Funny how mass genocide didn't occur in the US.

  also i NEVER compared the riots to the holocaust! once again you were unable to understand what i actually said (probably my mistake!). the riots just show that there are tentions in the US between the racial groups that could easily be exploitet by unscrupulous politicians if the economical situation would deteriorate. Racial tensions? sure years ago. Fortunately they didn't result in mass genocide. Beyond that, our greatest US Leaders, from Lincoln, were very astute in discerning the immorality and inhumanity of slavery and raciscm. Fortunately, we didn't have to have a holocaust 60 years ago to point this out.
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  Richie

  This past week was the real end for peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. When talking doesn't work, and the person you're talking to is either a liar, a thug or both, it becomes time for less talk and more action.
  
  In the year 2000, Ehud Barak, Israel's Prime Minister at that time, and onetime General who served and led with distinction, made an extraordinary peace gesture to Hezbollah, the Iranian and Syrian supported Islamic terrorist group. Barak unilaterally ordered the evacuation of all Israeli troops from the security strip separating South Lebanon from Israel. In Barak's mind, he thought this gesture would invite a counter gesture of goodwill from the Arabs. He was wrong. Very wrong! Instead of seeing this action as a move towards conciliation, the Arabs saw it only as a sign of Israeli weakness. And instead of reciprocating, the Arabs stepped up the violence.
  None of this was lost on Arafat. Arafat walked away from the Camp David Peace talks with the lesson of Hezbollah. Terrorize the Israelis and they'll cave in.
  
  I don't blame Barak for trying to do the right thing in Southern Lebanon. He had to try something. And now we all know the results. Israel is a country of only 5 million Jews, surrounded by more than 300 million hostile Arabs. The fact that Israel not only exists, but is an economic, social and military wonder in spite of the constant threats and attacks, is proof positive that it is not governed by idiots. Israel knows that just one major mistake will spell the end of its existence. Even this past week, in a speech to his Palestinian people, Arafat once again called for the destruction of Israel and the subsequent death to the Jews. None of this is lost on most of the Israeli leadership and military.
  
  There are no more negotiations. Why should there be? With whom should Israel negotiate? With Arafat; the Jew hating terrorist thug who says one thing in his peace-loving voice to the EU and the UN, while in his real voice he exhorts his people to murder Jews? Israel has come to the realization that there is only one way to end the so-called cycle of violence and protect its people from Arab/Palestinian terrorist attacks. DISENGAGE!
  
  The Palestinians have demanded that Israel leave Gaza and the West Bank. So that's what Israel's in the process of doing. But not like they left Southern Lebanon. When Israel finally pulls out of Gaza, the Palestinians will have nothing to crow about. There will be no Palestinian victory. No celebration that the "brave" Palestinian "freedom fighters" drove out the Jews. There will only be death and destruction. Arafat had the generous peace deal with honor in his hands at Camp David in the year 2000, which he crumpled and threw into the garbage heap of history.
  
  The grizzly television scenes of death, destruction and wounded Palestinians in Gaza at the hands of the Israeli military makes anyone with a normal sensitivity cringe. Myself included. But what choice does Israel have, other than national suicide? The visuals of this horror have invited the condemnation from the usual suspects: the UN, EU, the Arab world and the regular human rights watch-dog groups who all seem to be blind to the murder, maiming and suffering of Israeli Jews. In Gaza, Israel is playing by Arab rules. If you're going to beat your enemy. Just do it!
  
  At the Economic Summit last weekend in Jordan, King Abdullah advised the USA to install an Arab strongman in Iraq, and get out. Abdullah knows. His grandfather, King Abdullah the first, died at the hands of Islamists at the Al Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. King Hussein, his late father almost lost Jordan to a combined attack by Arafat's Palestinians and Syrian forces in September 1970. And only with the help of Israel; did his father beat back his enemies. When Abdullah says to install a strongman, he means a leader not frightened to reign horror upon those who would oppose him. Much like Saddam Hussein did. Perhaps that's why the Jordanian monarchy and Saddam Hussein were so close.
  
  Another example is the late leader of Syria, Hafez al Assad, who murdered as many, and maybe more than 30,000 men, women and children in a suburb of the Syrian City of Hama, the home and hotbed of the Moslem Brotherhood. After a month-long bombardment of this Moslem quarter, from February 2, 1999 to the end of February, no Syrian leader ever again heard a peep from the Moslem Brotherhood. They got the message. These are the rules by which Sharon is playing.
  
  When Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's troops finally do pull out of Gaza, there will be only one reality. Israel will have left on its own accord, leaving behind a beaten and humiliated enemy, who would understand the consequences before attacking the Jewish state again.
  
  Unlike the Geneva Convention; these are the rules of engagement of the Arab Middle East. Rules the Arabs have lived by for thousands of years. Rules by which they will be punished by because they can't seem to understand any other. Whether the EU, the UN and any other alphabet combination likes it or not, this is how the game is played in the Middle East. And no one knows it better than Ariel Sharon.

  Richie :*)
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  avishai

  Right on, richie.