Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

LittleToe

The positions are getting intractible.
Would it confuse or clarify matters to bring in the doctrine of the tri-part man (1Thess.5:23)?
ellderwho

Undis, Also, just curious, but haven't you been using the King James Version all the way through this Thread until I posted a Verse that you didn't like the wording of?

Most all of scripture I post is Nasb. Your hanging most of your idea on "readiness of mind" Im simply showing you other words that work, in that sentence. Again if the sentence does not state the word mind your arguement falls.
Actually I use the Niv more than my Nasb. Only because I know where things are. Some of the comentary in the Niv is a little slanted, but, it somehow turned into my favorite.
In all those translations, the Bereans are using their Spirit-enlightened MINDS to see what the TRUTH is, and then to make a decision on whether to believe something based on FACTS and TRUTH.
I believe you are reading a little to much into the text. You keep saying these Bereans must have been enlightened. The problem is, scripture does not state this.
I would consider how Jesus handled the religious leaders in John.
John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
John 8:42
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.

John 8:43
"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
Did not the religious leaders have ears on their heads?
This is the thought in a nutshell;
John 8:47
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
How do you get around the fact that Jesus gives life to who he chooses? Its not us who choose, wouldnt the text say a little about this matter of choice.
John 5:21
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes
The Bereans could study all they want to, Just like the Pharisees' and Nicodemus was told he has to be born again. You must agree that the birth in reference does not originate with man. And if your spirit is Born of Gods spirit how can this reject itself?
John backs this up here;
John 6:37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
It does'nt say " all the Father gives me will decide on their own and then come to me" If your given to Christ, why doesnt the text say you can reject this?
1 John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
Born of who?
The "mind" of the inner man is the spirit of man.
I disagree,
1 Thessalonians 5:23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
What catagory do you put the mind in, in a unbeliever? You did say we are born with a dead spirit.
Which I agree.
E.
LittleToe

Ellderwho:
I don't know if it's more accurate to say that the "spirit" is put in man, or that it is resurrected to life (I lean towards the latter). Certainly there is little more than nurtured emnity between the actions of the body and the soulish desires, before regeneration. Afterwards the war between spirit and flesh (soulish desire) begins. This would be my opinion, however [in]accurate that may be.
When you read all those scriptures (thusfar quoted in this thread) in light of a tri-part man, they take on a whole new meaning. Personally, I find that it clarifies a lot of things.
ellderwho

LIttleToe:
My understanding of regeneration begins and ends with Gods sovereignty. With that "He is the potter"and the potters will is always done. (Not trying to preach to choir)
The whole idea that man can make a choice puts a termendous amout of presure on man. If Im left with choice I will do as the Bible says I will do. Opt out of the relationship with God, I cannot keep up my end of the agreement.
If God chooses me, Im his forever.
The Arminian IMHO will always end up with a "works salvation". Theres no way around it.
E.
LittleToe

It's not in the soul's ("ego's") interest to desire the "spirit".
For those who take the hypercalvinist extreme, however, and make this an excuse for not turning to "the divine", I would say that if any such "desire" exists, it has likely already been placed there.
We might not like the mechanics of it, from an egotistical POV, but the results remain to be seen...
Deputy Dog

LT and Ellderwho What is most interesting to me in this debate, is how undis fights to preserve man's will, at all cost, even to the point of twisting scripture. Did our Lord teach us to pray "my will be done on earth as yours is in heaven"? LT, you bring up a good point about "hypercalvinism" or license to sin. But, can we save the "Liberty vs. License" debate for another day? I'm running out of space on my hard drive as it is! Ellderwho,
The whole idea that man can make a choice puts a termendous amout of presure on man. If Im left with choice I will do as the Bible says I will do. Opt out of the relationship with God, I cannot keep up my end of the agreement.
What do you mean? Israel (those serpents, generation of vipers) could have done a fine job! Just look at how impressed Jesus was, with their choices!
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
19 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
20 Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.
21 And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
22 And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
Don't you get it? Where is your faith in man? Israel was savable (look at verse 33), I don't know why God gave up on them. Maybe undis will explain it to us.
D ("D" for DUM) Dog
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog,
I fight for the truth of the Scripture. I defend the true Gospel that the Apostle Paul preached.
The Gospel that Paul preached (that all people will be judged by) was:
Jesus Christ died and rose again for ALL men and that God desires ALL men to be saved and that God commands ALL men to repent.
Paul's Gospel message was NEVER like this:
Jesus Christ died and rose again only for a select number of people that He predestined for salvation before He created anything, and God only desires those select people to be saved, and God only wants those select people to repent.
Ellderwho said:
The Arminian IMHO will always end up with a "works salvation". Theres no way around it.
I'm going to post a little illustration:
If a man is drowning (because of his own mistake), and then someone offers his hand to pull him out of the water, if that drowning man accepts the hand and is saved, does the drowning man have any merit because he grabbed hold of the saving hand?
Just because that drowning person decided to grab onto the saving hand does NOT mean at all that he deserved to be saved or that he did some "good work" that entitled him to be saved.
Grabbing onto the saving hand is NOT a "good work" that entitles anyone to be saved.
However, it was the MEANS that the drowning man was saved THROUGH.
UnDisfellowshipped

About the "tri-part" man:
As far as I can tell, at certain points in Scripture, the terms "soul" and "spirit" and interchangeable, and then, in other Verses, they are separated.
I'll post more soon.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
The Bereans could study all they want to, Just like the Pharisees' and Nicodemus was told he has to be born again. You must agree that the birth in reference does not originate with man. And if your spirit is Born of Gods spirit how can this reject itself?
Are you saying that the Bereans were born again BEFORE they became believers? I'm trying to understand exactly what you're saying.
Because Paul said, in Romans Chapter 10, the following about salvation:
Romans 10:13-15: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! (Verse 17:) So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Ephesians 2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God
Let me make myself absolutely clear:
Salvation is 100%, totally, absolutely, a work of God, a free gift of God.
Humans can do absolutely NOTHING to earn it, deserve it, or merit it.
Humans are NOT saved because of doing good works, being baptized in water, partaking of the Lord's Evening Meal, preaching to others, reading the Bible, being "holy", going to church, confessing sins, belonging to any organization or denomination.
Humans are saved only because of JESUS CHRIST.
Humans are saved only because of CHRIST's Sacrifice, Shed Blood, Resurrection, and LIFE!
Humans are saved only because CHRIST FIRST desires that they be saved.
CHRIST IS EVERYTHING.
JESUS IS SOVEREIGN.
ellderwho

I believe you used this illustration before,
If a man is drowning (because of his own mistake), and then someone offers his hand to pull him out of the water, if that drowning man accepts the hand and is saved, does the drowning man have any merit because he grabbed hold of the saving hand?
Just because that drowning person decided to grab onto the saving hand does NOT mean at all that he deserved to be saved or that he did some "good work" that entitled him to be saved.
Grabbing onto the saving hand is NOT a "good work" that entitles anyone to be saved.
I honestly understand the point you are trying to make. It does not work and I'll show you why.
Is the drowning man alive?
UD, when as an un-believer I myself was NOT alive. Therefore how could I make a choice to accept or reject the hand that saves?
You are stuck in your thinking that Jesus made you savable as DDog pointed out.
If your illustration is correct, make it work with what Paul describes the natural state of man to be.
Romans 3:11
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;

Romans 3:12
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." So the "drowning" man does not understand what the saving hand is for, so why would he grab it?
The "drowning" man is not seeking a saving hand.
Just because that drowning person decided to grab onto the saving hand does NOT mean at all that he deserved to be saved or that he did some "good work" that entitled him to be saved.
Why not, he saved himself. Look at Romans
Romans 8:7
because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
The drowning man has no idea what the hand is for, and does not want it.
Furthermore you said of the death bed confession of faith, "that if I were truely, truely repentive" I could
in effect grab hold of the "saving hand" So I can save myself. Of course if I want to.
7. Knowing I was enlightened once in my life, can I make a death-bed confession to God and follow-up the original enlightenment?
Only if you are truly repentant and humble yourself before God, and believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and that He died for you.
Are you saying that the Bereans were born again BEFORE they became believers? I'm trying to understand exactly what you're saying.
Undis, you continue to deflect questions about what the Bible states.
Show where the Bereans get "enlightened" by God and have time to accept or reject his calling.
Or as you would have it, the Bereans are drowning and God is giving his hand to see if one of the Bereans is going to decide to grab the hand or sink.
Show me with your illustration how it applies to the following verses.
Romans 9:10
And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

Romans 9:11
for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

Romans 9:12
it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
With your illustration, why is Esau not offered the "savinghand" because of his drowning?
Humans are saved only because of JESUS CHRIST.
Humans are saved only because of CHRIST's Sacrifice, Shed Blood, Resurrection, and LIFE!
Humans are saved only because CHRIST FIRST desires that they be saved.
What about Esau? Why does your thinking leave him without the hand that keeps him from drowning?
E.

Freedom to Choose God

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