Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped You said
"God is going to judge all of the people who have never even known or heard about God or God's Laws or the Gospel, isn't He?"

"My point is, God is going to judge persons whom He did not reveal His Laws to, isn't He?"
According to Romans 2:14, 15 I don't believe there is such a person.
Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
They may not know God, but, the law is written in their hearts.
"That would mean that God DID create the concept or idea of sin, which does not contradict anything else in the Bible."
Thank you, at least we agree on something!
"But, God did NOT create the actual first sin and rebellion of Satan. That's my whole point."
"God knew before He ever created Satan that Satan would sin, thus God already knew the concept of sin, but God did not create Satan so that Satan had no choice but to sin."
I'm not sure I understand your point, but I believe God knows the future because as King of creation, He decrees everything that happens, both good and evil. In other word he knows it will happen because he says it will happen. Again, I offer these verses as proof:
Acts 4:26
The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Another passage that I find interesting is: 2 Samuel 24. Here God moves David to sin.
2 Samuel 24:1
And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.
Now, we see David asking for forgiveness in verse 10:
2 Samuel 24:10
And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly.
Finally we see God's Judgment in verse 15:
2 Samuel 24:15
So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men.
What is really interesting here is that God gives David a choice of 3 punishments. In light of what just happened, I'm sure God even decreed which one he would choose. Now you're probably thinking what would be the point. Well, I don't know the mind of God. But, if I may speculate, just because man has a "will" and it may even be free to some extent to love or desire what ever it may, But that doesn't necessarily mean we have the complete freedom to exercise it. My parents did not give me complete freedom to exercise my will, did yours? Why would God be any different with His children, whom He loves. He knows what's best! I thank God that He changes my will to conform to His. I believe this is what happened to David, God used sin to change David's will. I know he has used sin to change mine.
You see, I believe that God is KING of the universe and He rules it (all of it, every last molecule, adam and electron) with a rod of iron. He is "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS". Not president of the church. We Christians, today, especially in America, can't identify with being ruled by a king.
Now, Undisfellowshipped, do you still believe I preach a different gospel, If so why?
D Dog
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog,
Thank you for your latest reply.
I agree with you 100% that God is KING of the Universe, KING of Heaven, KING of the earth, and KING of everything.
I also agree that God CAN, if He so chooses, do whatever He desires, including limit or take away a person's freedom to choose or their free will.
God is Sovereign. God can absolutely do whatever He desires (the only things God cannot do are lie or sin because that would be against His own Nature).
There is no doubt that God has, at certain times (such as the David incident you mentioned), caused people to make certain decisions that He wanted them to make.
There is also no doubt that God completely and totally foreordained and predestined everything that involved Jesus Christ's Sacrifice, just as Acts 4:28 says.
However, the Scriptures do state very clearly, repeatedly, that Jesus Christ died for all humans, and that this was the Gospel that the Apostle Paul preached, and this is the Gospel that I also preach, based on ALL of the following Verses (KJV):
Isaiah 53:6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Hebrews 2:9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
1st Timothy 2:6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
2nd Peter 2:1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
1st John 2:2: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
2nd Corinthians 5:14-15: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 1:29: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 11:50: Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
John 12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.
ellderwho

Undis,
What are your responses to John chapter 5. From page 8 and 9???
E.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho, sorry for the delay, I'm going to reply to your questions and statements here:
Ellderwho said:
Undis, look at what Jesus is saying in the above quotes. First of all God quickens whom he pleases as does the Son v21. Does this mean in v24 that God raises the dead on the last day and "saves" them ? I believe it is in reference to the present; v25 ' the hour is coming and now is when the dead shall hear ' what happens when you hear ? YOU LIVE!
The Father and The Son can quicken whomever they desire to quicken.
John 5:24: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
That is talking about people who have not physically died, but who are spiritually dead.
If a person who is spiritually dead hears Jesus' Word and believes Him and His Father, that person has passed from spiritual death to spiritual life, and has everlasting life, and will never be condemned or judged.
But notice, it is NOT simply "hear and you will live!" it is actually "hear AND BELIEVE and you will live!"

Ellderwho said:
Furthermore as believers, how do you suppose we get to a point when the "word" dwells in us?? v38

Niv. v37,38 And the Father who has sent me has himself testified concerning me.You have never heard his voice or seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.

Why doesnt the word dwell in them???
The word does not dwell in them because they refuse to believe in Jesus.
Once The Holy Spirit opens a person's eyes, then they can choose to refuse to believe or they can choose to believe, and if they choose to believe, then the word will dwell in them.

Ellderwho said:
Jesus goes on to say you search the scriptures. This simply stated, we dead in sin, can read all we want to about the savior and teachings and claim this and that, the bottom line is if his word does not dwell in you your DEAD!
And no where in scripture is it taught that we can somehow invoke this action or complete it by a choice.
The Apostle Paul said that "natural men" cannot even understand the Bible.
No one can understand the Bible unless The Holy Spirit decides to open that person's understanding.
But, Jesus said that those Jews were REFUSING to come to Him for salvation, which means that they were given a CHOICE, which shows that those particular Jews must have been enlightened by The Holy Spirit already, but had rejected Christ.

Ellderwho said:
You say lets look at John 5. And you highlight words that either imply will or chioce. Which is interesting because words like will and may describe our inability as sinners to do exactly what it is you believe we as sinners are capable of.
Well, I agree that no one (without The Holy Spirit opening their eyes) could ever understand the Gospel or choose to believe in Jesus.
Ellderwho said:
None of us are willing. Even when drawn and saved as Paul was, I struggle just like Paul descibes my nature would have me do. Ro.7:14-2
Well, our sinful old corrupted nature inherited from Adam would NEVER choose to come to Jesus. However, our Spirit-enlightened spirits can choose to reject or accept Jesus.
Ellderwho said:
Could Lazarus make the choice to be brought back to life in this world?. And then die again. Either way Lazarus is present with the Lord 2Cor.5:8 in death or life.
I highly doubt that Lazarus had a choice in being resurrected at that particular time.
Jesus is Sovereign.
However, as I said before, Lazarus made the choice to be resurrected (at some future time) when he was Born Again.
Ellderwho said:
Christ re-unites Lazarus' spirit with his body Lazarus has no choice in this action.
You're most likely right on that point.
However, even if Lazarus had been given the choice, I'm pretty sure that he would have chosen to be resurrected so that he could give glory and honor to Jesus!
Ellderwho said:
Jo.5:21 Jesus gives life to whom he wills, not who wills it.
I believe that The Trinity must first choose to quicken a person, and then that person has no choice but to be enlightened, but then they must make a decision (as Revelation 2 shows).
Ellderwho said:
As Christ' ressurection he left the grave clothes behind, where Lazarus wears them out.
My point is how could Lazarus choose to be spiritually ressurected. With Jo. 5:21 in that the ressurection spoken of is spiritual it has to be with 5:24 making the point.
Just because Jesus was making a comparison does not mean that the comparison is exactly the same on both things being compared.
Notice another comparison Jesus used:
Luke 18:1-5: T hen He spoke a parable to them, that men always ought to pray and not lose heart, saying: "There was in a certain city a judge who did not fear God nor regard man. Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get justice for me from my adversary.' And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not fear God nor regard man, yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.'"
In that comparison, God was nothing at all like that wicked man -- Jesus was simply showing that we need to keep on praying all the time, again and again.
So, Jesus used comparisons where the two things were not always exactly the same.
Ellderwho said:
A physically dead person can not hear.
A spiritually dead person can not hear either! (Gods word that is)
5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
5: 24.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Notice in the above, the fact that you can hear Gods word is the sign a person has already passed from death, to life.
The sign is if a person hears AND BELIEVES, not just hearing.
Ellderwho said:
With John Chapter 5 look also at what Jesus tells the disciples in Matthew 13:9-11
9
"He who has ears, let him hear."
10
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?"
11
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
We all have ears, but if "it" is not given to you how will you know?
I agree 100%. No one can understand the Gospel OR repent OR believe in Jesus UNTIL it has been granted them from God.
ellderwho

Undis
But notice, it is NOT simply "hear and you will live!" it is actually "hear AND BELIEVE and you will live!"
John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God........ Is this by choice?

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Is this by choice??
John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
When is a choice made available?
Matt. 9:11
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
John 6:37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

Where in the above scriptures am I given a time to ponder this calling of God?
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Where is it taught in scripture that I can reject Gods will?
E.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God........ Is this by choice?

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Is this by choice??
John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
When is a choice made available?
Those Verses do not mention a choice, but others do (I will highlight my points in Bold):
Luke 3:7-9: Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Were those Pharisees ["Broods of Vipers"] not given a choice to repent and to flee from the wrath?
Matthew 3:5-12: Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
John the Baptist not only said that those Pharisees and Sadducees ["Broods of Vipers"] had the choice to repent, John also baptized them in water "unto repentance", and he said that Jesus would baptize them with The Holy Spirit.
Ellderwho said:
Matt. 9:11
Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
John 6:37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Ephesians 1:11
also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

Romans 8:30
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 9:19
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

Where in the above scriptures am I given a time to ponder this calling of God?
You missed a Verse along those same lines:
John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
I agree 100% that no one can come to Jesus unless The Father draws him first, and The Holy Spirit enlightens them.
But, the Book of Hebrews (over and over again) and 2nd Peter says that persons who have been drawn to Jesus and who have been enlightened and who were bought by Jesus' Blood, CAN CHOOSE to fall away to Hell.
I will answer your last questions ASAP:
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Where is it taught in scripture that I can reject Gods will?
ellderwho

Matthew 3:5-12: Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
John the Baptist not only said that those Pharisees and Sadducees ["Broods of Vipers"] had the choice to repent, John also baptized them in water "unto repentance", and he said that Jesus would baptize them with The Holy Spirit.

Undis, I believe John was saying here in verses 7,8 that you cant just go through the act of baptism, there must be evidence of a new life,there must be fruits of the Spirit in your life.
Question, do you bear fruits of the Spirit without the Holy Spirit?
Luke 3:7-9: Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Were those Pharisees ["Broods of Vipers"] not given a choice to repent and to flee from the wrath?
I believe John was addressing the multitudes not specifically the Pharisees. Also these people wanted baptism for the escape of eternal punishment, not Gods salvation. Thats why John has harsh words for the multitudes. They were just looking for a insurance policy.
You missed a Verse along those same lines:
John 6:44: No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
I missed alot of verses that show predestination. Im simply trying to blend the thought that If no one can come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none that are given to the Son will not be lost, (or snatched from his hand) then how could your position with Hebrews and 2Peter apply?
E.
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Acts 17:30: Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,
God commands that all men everywhere repent.
Luke 13:1-9: There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
Jesus warned people that they MUST choose to repent or perish. Jesus also gave a Parable that shows that Jesus waits a certain period of time (however long He chooses) for people to repent before He "cuts them down."
Revelation 2:15-16: Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Is that not a choice Jesus gave -- "Repent or else"?
Revelation 2:20-23: Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
Jesus chooses to give each individual person (that The Father has drawn to Jesus) a certain period of time to accept or reject the Gospel, and then after that period, if they have rejected the Gospel, they are eternally, forever lost to Hell, as the Book of Hebrews and 2nd Peter chapter 2 show.
Now, check out Acts Chapter 8:
Acts 8: 22-23: Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
This person had already been enlightened with the truth by God in Acts 8:13, but was definitely NOT Born Again.
However, this man was still given a certain amount of time by God to choose whether or not he would repent and pray to God for forgiveness.
Now, let's look at the Book of Hebrews:
Hebrews 3:7-19: Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.'" Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: "Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion." For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
Notice that Paul is warning people who have been enlightened with the truth of the Gospel (but not yet Born Again) that they can still develop an "evil heart of unbelief" and can depart from God, and can be hardened by sin.
The Holy Spirit also warns enlightened (but not yet Born Again) people against hardening their hearts.
It also says that ALL of the Israelites (who had been enlightened with the truth about God, but not yet Born Again) who came out of Egypt rebelled against God, even though obviously some of those made the decision to believe in God and repent later.
Hebrews 6: 4-6: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Paul says that people who have been enlightened and have become partakers of The Holy Spirit can fall away to Hell.
Hebrews 10:26-31: For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Paul says that if a person willfully sins against Jesus and insults The Spirit after having been enlightened with the truth of the Gospel, he has committed the unforgivable sin.
Hebrews 10:36-39: For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise: "For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him." But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Paul is again saying that Spirit-enlightened persons can "draw back" away from God to perdition, and no longer be pleasing God.
Acts 2:38-40: Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call." And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Peter said that the opportunity to be saved was open to EVERYONE that he was speaking to and ALL who are far off (as many as the Lord God will call or draw or enlighten), and then Peter urged EVERYONE to "Be saved".
Acts 3:19: Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
That is a choice being offered once again.
Revelation 16:9: And men were scorched with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God who has power over these plagues; and they did not repent and give Him glory.
This is showing that people will REFUSE to repent (they must have a choice, or why else would Revelation 16:9 even mention the fact that they will not repent?).
I will answer your next questions as soon as I can:
Where is it taught in scripture that I can reject Gods will?
Question, do you bear fruits of the Spirit without the Holy Spirit?
Im simply trying to blend the thought that If no one can come to the Son unless drawn by the Father and none that are given to the Son will not be lost, (or snatched from his hand) then how could your position with Hebrews and 2Peter apply?
ellderwho

Ellderwho said:
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Acts 17:30: Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent,

God commands that all men everywhere repent.

So! Do all men repent?
Your not answering my question.
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Posting Acts 17:30 has nothing to do with the question.
Luke 13:1-9: There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answered and said to them, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." He also spoke this parable: "A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none. Then he said to the keeper of his vineyard, 'Look, for three years I have come seeking fruit on this fig tree and find none. Cut it down; why does it use up the ground?' But he answered and said to him, 'Sir, let it alone this year also, until I dig around it and fertilize it. And if it bears fruit, well. But if not, after that you can cut it down.'"
Jesus warned people that they MUST choose to repent or perish. Jesus also gave a Parable that shows that Jesus waits a certain period of time (however long He chooses) for people to repent before He "cuts them down."
You quote Luke 13:1-9 highlighting 7-9.In the OT a tree was a symbol of godly living. Ps. 1:3 Jer. 17:7,8. I believe this is symbolic of Israel. Israel rejected Christ saying;
" His blood be on us, and our children" Matt 27:5.
I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.
So! Will we repent without the Holyspirit?
Where in scripture is it taught clearly that Im entitled to examine this calling or enlightenment?
Revelation 2:15-16: Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.
Is that not a choice Jesus gave -- "Repent or else"?
Revelation 2:14
'But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality.......Another reference to Israels idol worship.

Revelation 2:15
'So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:16
'Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth.
2 Thessalonians 2:8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;

Revelation 1:16In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength.
Again what makes us repent? Is it our own nature? Or does the HolySpirit move us to repentance? They way you view repentance IMHO is that its something of our on accord.
Rev 2:16 says "Repent or else I am coming to you" Do you think if humans do not repent, he (Jesus) will not come with judgement of his(Jesus) mouth?
We have discussed Jezebel before;
Revelation 2:20-23: Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.
2 Kings 9:34
When he came in, he ate and drank; and he said, "See now to this cursed woman and bury her, for she is a king's daughter."

2 Kings 9:35
They went to bury her, but they found nothing more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands.

2 Kings 9:36
Therefore they returned and told him. And he said, "This is the word of the LORD, which He spoke by His servant Elijah the Tishbite, saying, 'In the property of Jezreel the dogs shall eat the flesh of Jezebel;
2 Kings 9:37
and the corpse of Jezebel will be as dung on the face of the field in the property of Jezreel, so they cannot say, "This is Jezebel.""'
When was Jezebel given time to repent?
unless they repent of their deeds.
Does your God know if they will repent on their own?
Now, check out Acts Chapter 8:
Acts 8: 22-23: Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
This person had already been enlightened with the truth by God in Acts 8:13, but was definitely NOT Born Again.

Acts 8:16
For He had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:17
Then they began laying their hands on them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit.

Acts 8:18
Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

Acts 8:19
saying, "Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit."

Acts 8:20
But Peter said to him, "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!Acts 8:21
"You have no part or portion in this matter, for your heart is not right before God.

Acts 8:22
"Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord that, if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.

Acts 8:23
"For I see that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage of iniquity."

Acts 8:24
But Simon answered and said, "Pray to the Lord for me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon me."

Simon the sorcerer was a deceiver Acts 8:9 Although he was baptized with water it was not the HolySpirit. I believe Simon has head knowledge but he's not converted.
You state Simon was "enlightened" in Acts 8:13 show me where!
Acts 8:13
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip, and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
The above says nothing about God "enlightening" him.
Many people today are confessed believers. But what do they believe in? As in Simons case he amazed people with sorceries. An was considered a "believer". Kinda like a Benny Hin.
Acts 8:23-24 Simon doesnt asked to be saved. And says nothing about Simon praying for his salvation. He just askes that nothing bad happens to him. And scripture does not state that he comes to Christ.
Rehashing Hebrews again:
Paul says that people who have been enlightened and have become partakers of The Holy Spirit can fall away to Hell.
Then I will rehash Romans:
Romans 7:17
So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. Is Paul going to Hell?

Romans 7:19
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. Is Paul going to hell?
Romans 7:20
But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Is Paul going to Hell?
Paul is again saying that Spirit-enlightened persons can "draw back" away from God to perdition, and no longer be pleasing God.
Romans 7:21
I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. Is Paul going to Hell?

Romans 7:22
For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

Romans 7:23
but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Is Paul going to Hell?

Romans 7:24
Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Well, is Paul going to hell?
My earlier post:
Ellderwho said:
John 5:25
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God........ Is this by choice?

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Is this by choice??
John 3:8
"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
When is a choice made available?
Those Verses do not mention a choice, but others do (I will highlight my points in Bold):
Explain to me why those verses DO NOT mention a choice being made available?
E.
ellderwho

Undis, how do Pauls words here fit your understanding of a time period to choose or deny Gods calling?
1 Corinthians 2:7
but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

1 Corinthians 2:8
the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

1 Corinthians 2:9
but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD,
AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN,
ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

1 Corinthians 2:10
For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

1 Corinthians 2:13
which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

What would a reasonable time frame be for a person to be enlightened before he would actually decide to fully except the Holy Spirit?
And what part of the Holy Spirit would do the enlightening without actually "saving" said person?
Does the enlightening mean that Gods spirit testifies with mans spirit for a testing period to see if that person really wants to be saved?
Because Paul says here in 1Cor.2:14 ...........But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Once enlightened but not saved, are we still considered to be in the "natural man" catagory, or natural man-state of mind catagory?
Speaking of Simon you state:
This person had already been enlightened with the truth by God in Acts 8:13, but was definitely NOT Born Again.
However, this man was still given a certain amount of time by God to choose whether or not he would repent and pray to God for forgiveness.
How does that fit with what John tells us;
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

John 1:13
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The simple fact you claim that Simon has to ask himself whether he wants the calling of God, indicates you contratdict what John says about relying on the will of the flesh.
Please clarify these items.
E.

Freedom to Choose God

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