Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  ellderwho

  Little Toe, welcome back. Yes, like the bunny it keeps going, and going ......then again its one of the more interesting debates around here.

  Undis:

  Answer this, If God enlightens me today,

  1. what part of my natural state can respond ?

  I believe that it is the darkened and blinded spirit/soul of a person that The Holy Spirit enlightens or awakens -- since this is the only part of man which is everlasting. "The Spirit bears witness to our spirit."

  Psalm 51:10: Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

  So God then awakens my spirit/soul the part of me that otherwise would not have God, and desires nothing of him.

  Okay, now because this spirit/soul as you put it is roused, what does the spirit/soul confide in. As it pertains to my natural person. The spirit/soul cannot confer with my mind, due to the fact that it is hostile towards God. Ro 8:7

  In otherwords what does the spirit/soul do with this feeling of a renewed or a right spirit. You said "its the only part of man" Remember the natural mindset of the man is hostile towards God. Because the spirit/soul cannot rely on or confer with the flesh, what will it (the renewed spirit) do with this information?

  2. what does the "enlightenment" do to my natural state?

  3. does the "enlightenment" change my natural desires?

  All I know is what God's Word says about the subject:

  The Bible says that The Holy Spirit causes the enlightened person to:

  * Become Partakers of The Holy Spirit (Hebrews Chapter 6)

  * Receive the Knowledge of the Truth (Hebrews Chapter 10)

  * Escape the Pollutions of the World through the Knowledge of Jesus Christ (2nd Peter Chapter 2)

  * Know the Way of Righteousness (2nd Peter Chapter 2)

  * Taste the Heavenly Free Gift (Hebrews Chapter 6)

  * Taste the Good Word of God (Hebrews Chapter 6)

  * Taste the Powers of the World to Come (Hebrews Chapter 6)

  * Be led to Repentance [which can be rejected] (Romans Chapter 2)

  Your answer is that "the Holyspirit causes the enlightened person to" all the things you listed, plus the ability to reject it all.

  So my question about my natural state being changed is no, because you leave me with the option to reject. Which is exactly what the natural man will do with God. The same has to apply to "my natural desires" which go unchanged due to the option of rejection.

  Remember, of the spirit/soul you said "since its the only part of man" cannot have anything to do with the flesh because it is hostile towards God.But here you state:

  However, our Spirit-enlightened spirits can choose to reject or accept Jesus pg.10

  Jesus states in John that "and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. "

  Does Jesus mean that the Holyspirit gives birth to a spirit that has the option to reject its birth?

  If a person has been enlightened, and has willfully rejected Jesus, then he has committed the unforgivable sin -- blasphemy against The Spirit of Grace.

  I think Paul clarifies this in Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? After beginning in the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

  Galatians 1:16
  to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,

  Only people who are truly, truly repentant and truly humble themselves can have a relationship with God

  Is the above, a action on behalf of the flesh?

  I believe that when The Spirit enlightens a person, The Spirit restores that person's ability to humble himself, and restores that person's ability to repent, if he so chooses.

  Is this what Jesus meant in John 3:6-8

  John 3:6
  "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
  
  7
  "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
  
  8
  "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

  Are we being born of the Spirit during this "enlightenment" period? With the ability to reject this birth from the HolySpirit?

  E.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Hi LittleToe, how are you?

  Ellderwho, those are very good questions, and I am going to pray about them and study more in the Bible, and allow The Spirit to teach me through the Scriptures, and then I will reply to you.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Ellderwho said:

  So God then awakens my spirit/soul the part of me that otherwise would not have God, and desires nothing of him.

  Okay, now because this spirit/soul as you put it is roused, what does the spirit/soul confide in. As it pertains to my natural person. The spirit/soul cannot confer with my mind, due to the fact that it is hostile towards God. Ro 8:7

  In otherwords what does the spirit/soul do with this feeling of a renewed or a right spirit. You said "its the only part of man" Remember the natural mindset of the man is hostile towards God. Because the spirit/soul cannot rely on or confer with the flesh, what will it (the renewed spirit) do with this information?

  The Scriptures show different views of a human's "mind":

  Acts 17:11-12: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

  Those Bereans had not yet been Born Again, because Romans Chapter 10 says that before a person can be saved, he must believe in Jesus.

  So, before those Bereans were Born Again, they, with all "readiness of MIND" searched the Scriptures to see what the Truth was, and then when they discovered the Truth of the Gospel (after being enlightened by The Spirit), they became believers and were Born Again.

  Were their Spirit-enlightened minds totally and absolutely corrupt and incapable of deciding whether to believe the Gospel? Obviously not.

  Romans 7: 13-25 (NKJV): Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

  In Romans Chapter 7, Paul says equates his spirit ["inward man"] with his "mind", as being opposed to his "flesh" (sinful corrupted nature).

  So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.

  Romans 8:7: Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

  Paul said that the "carnal mind" is enmity against God and cannot be subject to God's Law.

  The "carnal mind" must mean the sinful and corrupted "flesh".

  Now, look at Romans Chapters 1 and 2 -- these Chapters reveal a lot about enlightenment:

  Romans 1:21-28: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

  Romans 2:4-5: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

  Notice these points from those Verses:

  1: God The Spirit can choose to enlighten people by His creation.

  2: When people know God (have been enlightened by Him), and then they reject Him, THEN God darkens their hearts, and gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, and God gives them up to a reprobate mind, because they did not keep God in their knowledge.

  3: God leads people to repentance, and then they can reject Him, and by doing so, treasure up wrath for themselves because of their impenitent heart.
• 

  ellderwho

  Your response to the dilema of mind/spirit relationship:
  

  The Scriptures show different views of a human's "mind":

  Acts 17:11-12: These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.

  Those Bereans had not yet been Born Again, because Romans Chapter 10 says that before a person can be saved, he must believe in Jesus.

  So, before those Bereans were Born Again, they, with all "readiness of MIND" searched the Scriptures to see what the Truth was, and then when they discovered the Truth of the Gospel (after being enlightened by The Spirit), they became believers and were Born Again.

  Acts 17:11 Nasb
  Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

  Acts 17:11 Basic English Bible
  Now these were more noble than the Jews of Thessalonica, for they gave serious attention to the word, searching in the holy Writings every day, to see if these things were so.

  Acts 17:11 Douay-Rheims
  Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.

  Acts 17:11 Weymouth NT

  The Jews at Beroea were of a nobler disposition than those in Thessalonica, for they very readily received the Message, and day after day searched the Scriptures to see whether it was as Paul stated.

  Act 17:11 NIV " great eagerness"

  What do the above translations do to your "readiness of mind" theory?

  Whats really amazing is how you change the meaning of 'carnel mind'

  In Romans Chapter 7, Paul says equates his spirit ["inward man"] with his "mind", as being opposed to his "flesh" (sinful corrupted nature).

  So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.

  Romans 8:7: Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

  Paul said that the "carnal mind" is enmity against God and cannot be subject to God's Law.

  The "carnal mind" must mean the sinful and corrupted "flesh".

  Are you sure you want to say that the ' carnel mind' means corrupted flesh?

  So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.

  So then my brain is not carnel?

  My thoughts are not carnel?

  If by reading Romans 8:2-11 you feel that you are in control your mind, and that your mind is NOT carnel because you said Paul was not reffering to his mind, then what was Paul struggling with in Ro. 7

  Romans 8:2
  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
  
  Romans 8:3
  For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
  
  Romans 8:4
  so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
  
  Romans 8:5
  For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
  Romans 8:6
  For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
  
  Romans 8:7
  because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
  
  Romans 8:8
  and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
  
  Romans 8:9
  However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
  
  Romans 8:10
  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
  
  Romans 8:11
  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

  So, before those Bereans were Born Again, they, with all "readiness of MIND" searched the Scriptures to see what the Truth was, and then when they discovered the Truth of the Gospel (after being enlightened by The Spirit), they became believers and were Born Again..

  Were their Spirit-enlightened minds totally and absolutely corrupt and incapable of deciding whether to believe the Gospel? Obviously not.

  Where in Acts 17 does it indicate that the Bereans were "enlightened" ?

  Basically the Bereans is a good example of how a Christian today should be when hearing a sermon, if they have a question about the content, then go directly to scripture to see if it is true.

  How you develope a doctrine of enlightenment from the above scripture is very hard to follow since the verses you use say nothing about enlightenment or a time period to ponder said enlightenment.

  2: When people know God (have been enlightened by Him), and then they reject Him, THEN God darkens their hearts, and gives them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, and God gives them up to a reprobate mind, because they did not keep God in their knowledge

  Romans 9:15
  For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
  
  Romans 9:16
  So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
  
  Romans 9:17
  For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
  
  Romans 9:18
  So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
  
  Romans 9:19
  You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
  
  

  3: God leads people to repentance, and then they can reject Him, and by doing so, treasure up wrath for themselves because of their impenitent heart.

  Sorry, your arguement is with scripture not me.

  Again you never answer the question where in scripture is it taught that I have a time period to ponder the Holyspirits enlightening?

  And what part of me decides?

  E.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Ellderwho,

  Do I argue with Scripture?

  You choose to ignore certain Verses in Romans in favor of other Verses in Romans, as if certain Chapters are more inspired than others.

  I'll comment more soon. Very soon.
• 

  LittleToe

  Morning guys. Thanks for the welcome back.
  I'm enjoying your exchange, though it's a little verbose in places.

  I had to laugh at the multiple translations produced for the Berean text - LOL.
  That made my day. A little bit of overkill never does any harm, I guess
• 

  ellderwho

  You choose to ignore certain Verses in Romans in favor of other Verses in Romans, as if certain Chapters are more inspired than others.

  Your refering to the following?

  Romans 1:21-28: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

  Romans 2:4-5: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

  Perhaps I did ignore Chapter 1:

  Romans 1:1
  Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,

  Acts 9:15
  But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; But doesnt Paul have a time period to decide?
  
  16. I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."

  You quote Romans 1:21-28 and say I choose to ignore those verses. I choose not to comment because they do not pertain to election.

  Look at verse 20 the one you left out to prove choice.

  Romans 1:20
  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

  But you make bold words that you feel show choice:

  Romans 1:21-28: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful

  So what, most of mankind have heard of the concept of a God/creator/divine being.

  Look at verse 32 this sums up Pauls point:

  Romans 1:32
  and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

  Romans 2:4-5:

  I dont see a point by Ro. 2:4-5

  But because Paul says you "despisest thou the riches of his goodness" this is mans nature to reject God. Do you at least agree with that?

  Romans 2:14
  For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
  
  Romans 2:15
  in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

  From the above can you keep the Ten Comandments?

  I cant, people who try to do good without Gods Spirit are a Law unto themselves. But they cant even keep those laws that are unto themselves.

  Read the rest of chapter 2, to get the full thrust of Pauls message.

  E.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Ellderwho As you know I was in Maine for a while and when I returned home I didn't want to interrupt what you two had going. The more I read of his posts, the more I think this man must be Roman Catholic. He obviously believes that the good works in Ephesians 2:10 are meritorious toward salvation. He also doesn't seem to understand the problem with the belief that; Jesus' blood doesn't save, but only makes us savable. He has cut me off from the fellowship of believers at his assembly, because I believe that 1Timothy 2:6 refers to all Christians, and not all humans as he suggests. Even though I preach the same gospel as Paul in: 1Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: It seems that he believes that salvation is based on mans will, when God looks down through time he chooses the people that do the works of a Christian. He can't seem to grasp that this is a works based salvation and not based on the finished work of Jesus at Calvary. He also made a statement to you that I find interesting:

  In other words, The Spirit restores what Adam and Eve originally had before they sinned -- the freedom to choose whether or not to obey God.

  The Mormons and the JWs believe this, but I know of no mainstream Evangelicals that would agree with that statement as it stands. Some do teach that, as believers we can now choose to obey, but this is dealing with sanctification (meaning after salvation, not before) see Romans 8:9,verse 14 even says: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. I believe the Spirit enlightens believers when he Quickens or makes them alive in Christ (Romans 8:11). Remember, God has enlightened even the unrighteous to the point of having no excuse when they stand before Him (Romans 1:20), in other words, they have been enlightened through what has been made, not the Spirit. D Dog
• 

  ellderwho

  Ddog,

  It seems that he believes that salvation is based on mans will, when God looks down through time he chooses the people that do the works of a Christian

  Even with this thinking, when the reasoning is carried out, in the end does not God already know the choice that is going to take place.

  Or is God a spectator?

  Never mind the 60 some verses(nt) that I recall have inferences that plainly spell out election.

  And as Paul describes our nature even when elected, the termendous struggles with the flesh.

  How about Jesus statement for even if you think of adultery you have commited sin. Matt. 5:28

  On that note, I'd like to know how to keep my thoughts from sinning.

  Look at this reasoning(undis) concerning the mind of Paul:

  So, was Paul saying that his mind was absolutely corrupt and part of his "flesh", in which nothing good dwells? Obviously not.

  Do ya think Jesus was reffering to everyone except Paul?

  The "carnal mind" must mean the sinful and corrupted "flesh".

  Of the Bereans:

  Were their Spirit-enlightened minds totally and absolutely corrupt and incapable of deciding whether to believe the Gospel? Obviously not

  I guess Im not as righteous as those Bereans, but wait, not all the Bereans were saved. Verse 12 of Acts 17 says many believed, doesnt say all. So I guess some were just a little corrupt and just a little bit incapable to decide.

  I believe the Spirit enlightens believers when he Quickens or makes them alive in Christ (Romans 8:11).

  I agree, I'd still like to see the verses that teach a time period to ponder the Holyspirits calling. Because if that is the case, the heck with this Christianity Ive got some big time sinning to get in without all the guilt before my death bed confession.

  E.
• 

  UnDisfellowshipped

  Ellderwho said:

  Acts 17:11 Nasb
  Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

  Acts 17:11 Basic English Bible
  Now these were more noble than the Jews of Thessalonica, for they gave serious attention to the word, searching in the holy Writings every day, to see if these things were so.

  Acts 17:11 Douay-Rheims
  Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, who received the word with all eagerness, daily searching the scriptures, whether these things were so.

  Acts 17:11 Weymouth NT

  The Jews at Beroea were of a nobler disposition than those in Thessalonica, for they very readily received the Message, and day after day searched the Scriptures to see whether it was as Paul stated.

  Act 17:11 NIV " great eagerness"

  What do the above translations do to your "readiness of mind" theory?

  Not much, as far as I can see.

  In all those translations, the Bereans are using their Spirit-enlightened MINDS to see what the TRUTH is, and then to make a decision on whether to believe something based on FACTS and TRUTH.

  Some translations say "noble-minded" and some use other words which mean the same thing. And some say "readiness of mind" and some use other words which mean the same thing.

  Also, just curious, but haven't you been using the King James Version all the way through this Thread until I posted a Verse that you didn't like the wording of?

  Ellderwho said:

  Whats really amazing is how you change the meaning of 'carnel mind'

  Are you sure you want to say that the ' carnel mind' means corrupted flesh?

  So then my brain is not carnel?

  My thoughts are not carnel?

  If by reading Romans 8:2-11 you feel that you are in control your mind, and that your mind is NOT carnel because you said Paul was not reffering to his mind, then what was Paul struggling with in Ro. 7

  As I said before, the Scriptures give some DIFFERENT views of the "mind".

  The carnal "mind" is the inherited, sinful, corrupted inclinations and desires that we are all born with.

  The enlightened "mind" is one that has been drawn to Jesus and has been granted to know the truth and has been granted the ability to repent and believe.

  The "mind" of the inner man is the spirit of man.

  Ellderwho said:
  
  Romans 8:5
  For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
  Romans 8:6
  For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
  
  Romans 8:7
  because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
  
  Romans 8:8
  and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
  
  Romans 8:9
  However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
  
  Romans 8:10
  If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
  
  Romans 8:11
  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

  The carnal mind (the corrupted sinful inclinations and thoughts) is not and cannot be subject to God.

  However, humans are also born with a God-given (although somewhat distorted) conscience in their minds, so that they can know basic truths of right and wrong (such as murder, stealing, etc).

  Humans are also born with a "dead" spirit, which only The Holy Spirit can revive.

  Ellderwho said:

  Where in Acts 17 does it indicate that the Bereans were "enlightened" ?

  Well, think about it for a moment.

  1: Jesus said that no one can come to Him unless The Father draws that person.

  2: Jesus also said that in order for someone to believe in Him, it must be granted to him by God.

  3: Paul said that the Spirit enlightens a person, and then that person can choose to fall away and reject Christ. (Hebrews Chapters 6 and 10)

  4: Paul said that a person must first believe in Jesus and His Gospel and call upon Him in order to be saved.

  5: Those Bereans had not yet believed the Gospel or Jesus, and hence were not Born Again, however, they must have been enlightened, or they would not even have been able to understand the Scriptures correctly.

  Ellderwho said:

  Basically the Bereans is a good example of how a Christian today should be when hearing a sermon, if they have a question about the content, then go directly to scripture to see if it is true.

  True, very true. However, there is a huge point you're missing.

  The Bereans were NOT yet Christians. They were unsaved JEWS (and others) who did not yet believe in Jesus or the Gospel.

  The unsaved Bereans were "noble-minded" because they received the Word with "readiness of mind" (or eagarness) and they examined the Scriptures to get the FACTS and the TRUTH and then they made their DECISION to believe in the Gospel and be saved.

  I'll comment more soon.