by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible
LT
Do you mean individuals like Martin Luther? He was tormented by his faith until he found election in the scriptures. For me it is very comforting to know that my salvation is by Gods' will, not mine. If someone has difficulties with "assurance of faith", that person should not worry about their ability to please God, but Gods' ability to keep His promises.
D Dog
One mo time.
Gumby
Yiz
What you describe is merely looking into and seeing the future.
can you place a limit in the abilities of what God can and cannot do?
If that's all that predestination is, if that is the only action that god takes in the lives of people, which is really none, as he is only looking, then god is pretty wimpy, lacking abilities of persuasion. He should be able to have at his disposal methods of persuasion to be able to save all, since that is what he desires.
SS
I'm sure it's a safe bet to say that if "we" , had the abilities that the Bible God claims to have, not one person would ever have to die or suffer in any way.
A god who would even take that chance as he did with the test in the Garden of Eden, makes you wonder of his sanity. No normal person would take a chance with their childrens eternal welfare and life. We are supposed to be created in his Image yet we would never make the decisions the bible god makes.
He is nothing like a decent human being, but rather a god who has a bloody history no different than the Catholics.........but maybe a little worse. He should have also created a big boneyard where he could bury all his children he has either killed or allowed to die. Any single human who would have commited the deaths he has would never get out of prison.
Yes I sound like a god hater but I am not. I just don't buy into the sadistic god of the bible.
Gumgnostic
Gumby
Undisfellowshipped
This whole passage seems to hinge on this phrase " For if we sin wilfully ". Do you think there are true believers that will do this? I don't see anything here that explicitly says "rejecting the Gospel"
I believe this passage is comparing the law of Moses and the law of grace
What more can God give, than grace? If you continued to willfully sin under the law, you needed to offer another sacrifice. If you continue to willfully sin under grace, there is no more sacrifice.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the fact that unbelievers are more severely punished, based on the amount of light they receive. I guess our problem is weather or not a person is called just because they were enlightened.
Acts 4:25-28
Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.Verse 28 in the NASB says: to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur.
I think is safe to say most of these people (I include the Pharisees and Sadducees in this group) were not all called by the father to receive grace, but they were enlightened. They were predestined to sin and crucify our Lord.
D Dog
UnDis:
S'ok, bro, I wasn't underestimating your abilities to honestly read the scriptures, nor to research how people have defined words.
Words, however carry meaning to the individual, and there is always a level of interpretation that goes on, often dependant on life's experinece.
I guess what I'm really asking is quite personal.
How do you understand the term predestinate?
Yiz:
I don't place any limit on what "God" can do. However if mere mortals are going to declare his thoughts to the world, and interpret "His" actions for "Him", surely we had best be a little clearer in our argumentation than simply saying:
"I think God did this-that-and-the-other because He can, and so that's the way I interpret it because it suits my fancy...".IMHO that would be special pleading for our own personal bias.
Gumby:
What, in your opinion, is the difference between "will" and "desire", given that they are two different words?
Besides, which scripture are you quoting?
And additionally, I suspect that Rom.1:24 is applicable here, in that people desire "God" to be (or to act) in a certain way that may be contrary to "His" will, hence they project their desires onto "Him".
I'll give you an example:
Valis doesn't want to go to Billy Bobs, on Friday. But surely he must want to? He must desire it, because so many of us are going to be there? This discounts the fact that he goesn't really like that genre of music, and has actually made it clear in another place that it isn't his will at all.
Of course, this isn't going to stop me trying to persuade him to come, but that's his business, not mine.
DDog:
No, I'm more thinking about something that's more localised. Traditionally, in the Highlands of Scotland, folks have a fear that God might not want them. They believe if God doesn't want them, then there's nothing they can do about it, hence they perhaps find it difficult to respond to a desire that God may well have placed within them.
If that's all that predestination is, if that is the only action that god takes in the lives of people, which is really none, as he is only looking, then god is pretty wimpy, lacking abilities of persuasion. He should be able to have at his disposal methods of persuasion to be able to save all, since that is what he desires.
Of course I was persuaded, God used people to persuade me to come to Jesus after coming to understanding the Good News of Christ Jesus and what He did for me on that very day of Calvary. I came to understand who I am as a person and where I stand. I came to understand that God did in fact desired for me to be saved, but the rest came to me, my choice. I made a choice that I did not want to die in my sins and I wanted to be cleansed of my sins and to be saved, thereby having my name written in the Lamb's Book of Life. And I feel free, not from a physical experience, or emotional experience or by mental experience, it's a spiritual experience, unlike anything I've ever felt in my life. Nothing can duplicate this kind of experience in this world. All the drugs in the world that produces a high can never duplicate this kind of experience I have gone through. It's indescribable. There nothing in mere words that can explain this kind of experience I've encountered from the day I knelt on my knees and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Jesus commanded us to go forth and preach the gospel towards all creatures and to make disciples of men. Is that persuasion? Of course it is, but at the end result is, choice. How do you respond to the message of Jesus Christ and by what choice do you make upon receiving this message? Yiz
Littletoe wrote:
I don't place any limit on what "God" can do. However if mere mortals are going to declare his thoughts to the world, and interpret "His" actions for "Him", surely we had best be a little clearer in our argumentation than simply saying:
"I think God did this-that-and-the-other because He can, and so that's the way I interpret it because it suits my fancy...".IMHO that would be special pleading for our own personal bias.
God doesn't need man to interprete His actions for Him. In fact, I don't need man to explain things to me when it comes to reading and studying His word. What I think is irrelevant to me, what God thinks is relevant to me. Because what I think could be wrong, but what God thinks is never wrong. Here's how I learn and understand His word and when I don't understand, the Holy Spirit provides the clear understanding in scripture that I need. How? Simple, I just ask Him.
John 14: 26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Note the keyword in scripture, "teach". When I don't understand something, I just simply ask and the Holy Spirit then teaches me. He's my sole provider when it comes to learning and understanding His word. Not by man and certainly not by men like the GB. I don't need them to interprete His word, I have the source directly from the One who inspired the word. He's all I need and nothing more. Yiz
Yiz:
You're preaching to the choir
What, in your opinion, is the difference between "will" and "desire", given that they are two different words?
Besides, which scripture are you quoting?
And additionally, I suspect that Rom.1:24 is applicable here, in that people desire "God" to be (or to act) in a certain way that may be contrary to "His" will, hence they project their desires onto "Him".
A person can will something that he may not like. It might be my will that I have my dog put to sleep because she is old and suffering. I also desire she be put down, but I do not desire her to be out of my life.
I copy and pasted that partial scripture from the original thread and just realised it wasn't quoted as scripture but paraphrased. The scripture I thought it was, is the one that says it is not gods will that man die, but that all sorts of men be saved.......you know the one.To me the scripture is saying, god doesn't want anybody to die. God wants every person on this planet to have life. He wants ALL men to be saved. So....my point still stands. God wants, desires, prefers, is partial to, would rather have.........nobody die. He wants this...........but something got in the way of what he wanted and made him problems. He still wants people to live, but he has to deal with something first and go through some ugliness to accomplish it, even costing people their lives......but in the long run, the ugliness will pay off.
It sounds good, but the results really suck. God goes through all this "ugliness" (eg.; allowing sin in the world, sacrifices his son for others behalf, allows Satan free reign pretty much. What are the long term benifits? 90% ...or more.....of mankind gets the death/torture penalty, and a handfull out of humanity gets to live forever with jesus. It sounds to me like gods long term plan has a lousy payoff. I wouldn't invest.....too risky
Hope I made some sense. If not....you'd better hurry and tell me now, or you'll have to tell me in Texas.
Gumby
