by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible
Gumby:Since the thread is a theological one, of course the answers are going to be steeped in the Bible and the comments of Bible commentators like Calvin.
The point you raise was related to an interchange regarding Calvinism.
PS, dontcha just hate it when ya suffer premature post-ulation?
The point you raise was related to an interchange regarding Calvinism.
No no no ya bastard!
My point to you was........are we accountable to god because the bible says we are?
If your at a 4-way stop in your answer at this point in your life....no need to answer
Gumby
LT
I don't know how I missed that. Sorry.
Double-predestination (Hyper-Calvinist) declares that God predestined some to damnation. That places the onus of responsibility on God, not man. In view of the foregoing, can that be true?
Romans 9:17
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,I don't know how else to read these verses other than to say he makes one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour. Is this what you mean by "Double-predestination"
It's not Hyper-Calvinist to believe in a limited atonement is it?
D Dog
Gumby:
I don't know if I'm so much at a 4-way Stop as at a roundabout, seeing all the traffic circling in front of me - LOL.
...are we accountable to god because the bible says we are?
No. The law of their God made sin manifest to the Israelites, but the nations were already naturally doing things that upheld universal laws. Cause and effect worked there too, in that if you stole someone's spouse, the chances were that you'd get your come-up-ance.
Talking more generally, I think it's fair to say that the majority of people have some kind of belief in spirituality, afterlife, and general disconnectedness. I dont think you need the bible to tell you that.
Hence, regardless of what name you put on God (if indeed you bother at all) there is a deep-rooted sense of accountability.
I'll give you this example to make my point. In Ancient Egypt they believed that their heart was weighed against a feather, and the result determined the quality of your afterlife. Is this far different from people's exclamation that "they live a good life and never hurt anyone"?
Most people who say that to me seem to express some doubt that it's enough, though (and the Egyptians were no different). There's little confidence there. There seems to be an inate desire to "connect" and commune with God, to befriend rather than face a stern judge.
Hence the Christian ethos of a personal and magnaminous God, whom you can befriend, who wipes the slate of your heart clean. That being the Son, not the Father...
I hope this answers your question, but if not, rephrase it and I'll have another bash
DDog:
No worries. There's a lot of text in this thread. I almost missed your initial question, myself.
I do understand how you are reasoning on that scripture, but I think care is needed in how we divide it.
Limited Atonement points towards salvation, not damnation. You might argue, through attempted use of logic that damnation is also Predestined, but is that what scripture says?
Paul specifically calls attention to the elect being Predestined, but never makes the complementary statement that would be required for double-predestination.
To resort to logic, though, how just would it be if some had expressly been predestined to damnation?
It may seem like I'm trying to wriggle through a hole here, but I assure you I am not. I have already pointed out that there is a dichotomy with Calvinism, surrounding this very topic. It's usually stated as "God's Sovereignty vs Man's Responsibility". There is no satisfactory answer to be found in scripture, and so we must leave certain statements unsaid, just as scripture does...
I think Paul himself best outlines the danger of double-predestination in that which you quoted:
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Are we to make an excuse on the last day that we were unable to resist His will, and since He formed us in this way "Why did you make me this way?"?
For those whom He gives grace, He gives grace. For those who He doesn't, they remain in their sins. Grace is an "extra" to life, that is beyond the norm. I don't believe that anyone who hears the gospel should be told "well some of you have been Prededstined to damnation", which is what that doctrine would teach.
I'm sorry for the convoluted way I've written this. I'm tired, today.
Mornin LT....sorry you are tired today Maybe you didn't sleep well
Hence, regardless of what name you put on God (if indeed you bother at all) there is a deep-rooted sense of accountability.
Yes, it does seem true that all people who worship something they feel is their cause, live with accountability to their god. What seems to be behind this is fear however. If a person had no fear of a powerful god ever harming them, would they still feel accountable? Perhaps. Perhaps some would live by their gods standards simply to not hurt their gods feelings, but I think the former is more the case.
Perhaps man needs fear in front of him to act humane. If we did not have policemen and laws ........how civil would the world become? Would mankind who never suffered consequences for his actions become less civil and humane? Only LT knows
Gumby
Gumby
Gumby:
I dont know about only LT knowing
LT only know's his own mind (at times even that is tenuous) and has rare flashes of insight into the mind of Christ. I wouldn't even dare to claim knowledge of your mind on the subject.
A Question:When an atheist gets towards the end of his life and in a contented moment of self-reflection declares "I've lived a good life and not hurt anyone!", who is he directing this sense of accountability towards? Himself?
That's a genuine question. I'm not, and have never been, an atheist. I wouldn't presume to know the answer to that. Maybe someone, who has walked in those shoes, might like to answer?
I've lived a good life and not hurt anyone!", who is he directing this sense of accountability towards? Himself
Yes.
Who else is there to give credit to other than themselves, if there is no belief in god in that individual?
Gumby
LT
Think frank sinatra, 'i did it my way'. In being true to ourselves, we don't need a god. When someone does an excellent job, he feels satisfaction, like an artist feels it, after creating a work of art. God has nothing to do w it.
S
Gumby / Satanus:I'm talking specifically about atheists (you're both agnostic, right?) and advanced age (i.e. contemplating death), rather than day to day achievements..
How does an atheist deal with the natural (?) tendancy towards feeling accountable?
And I emphasise again, this is an honest question, asked in all sincerity.
How does an atheist deal with the natural (?) tendancy towards feeling accountable?
I don't know that atheist feel accountable I suppose it depends on ......how atheist they are.
Much of why people feel accountable is because of the conditioning and influence they have had all around them their entire life by those who say we are accountable to someone.
When a persons conscience tells them they are accountable...................where does that voice come from? Who's voice is it that tells someone they did a no no? Is it a part of the brain that functions as our 'moral reminder'......or is it something else?
Gumby
