How does answering this question " Did Jesus Christ die for all humans, or did He die only for certain humans whom God predestined to save?" actually determine whether or not someone is teaching a false Gospel?
Freedom to Choose God
by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible
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UnDisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog,
I apologize if I am "moving too quickly" or posting too much info at one time.
You said:
How does answering this question " Did Jesus Christ die for all humans, or did He die only for certain humans whom God predestined to save?" actually determine whether or not someone is teaching a false Gospel?
Because the Bible says so: 1st Timothy 2:5-7: For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. The Apostle Paul said that the Gospel that he was ordained to preach to the Gentiles was that Christ Jesus "gave Himself a ransom FOR ALL." The Apostle Paul also stated this very strong warning against preaching another "gospel": Galatians 1:8-9: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Deputy Dog said:Why don't you show us the quote?
I already did. Here is your quote from the "Trinity" Thread:It is not Gods' will that everyone is Jesus' spiritual "brother" or "sister" or "mother".
But Jesus stated this: Mark 3:35: For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. Thus, by your quote, you are claiming that it is NOT God's will for all people to do His will. Am I trying to force my beliefs on you? If you thought so, I apologize. I have only been trying to reason from the Scriptures and handle the Word aright. Have I twisted the Scriptures? If so, please show me immediately so I can know where I did so. Deputy Dog said:What verse says this
It's not found in one Verse. It is just like the Trinity Doctrine -- it is taught throughout the Scriptures. Titus 3:5 shows that The Holy Spirit saves people: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; And, that obviously does not happen until after the Holy Spirit has come into a person's heart to dwell there. Deputy Dog said:It doesn't say that he created everything but sin. Think about it. If Satan or the Devil created sin, that would mean that he knew something God didn't. He could come to God and say look at what I created, you didn't create all things.
Jesus said that Satan is "the father of the lie" and that he speaks the lie on his own. Are you saying God created lying also? -
UnDisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog has also claimed that a person is saved BEFORE he puts faith in Jesus and BEFORE he repents.
That is not the Gospel message that Paul taught:
Romans 10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:14-15: How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Luke 13:3: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 3:19: Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord
Revelation 2:21-23: And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Acts 16:30-31: And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
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UnDisfellowshipped
I'd like to comment on Acts Chapter 17 some:
Acts 17: 26-31: And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."
Look at what that says:
1: God wants everyone to seek the Lord and grope for Him and find Him, and He is not far off from ANYONE.
2: God commands ALL HUMANS EVERYWHERE to repent.
3: God has given assurance TO ALL HUMANS by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
There is no way of twisting those Verses around. They say what they say.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog said:
It doesn't say that he created everything but sin. Think about it. If Satan or the Devil created sin, that would mean that he knew something God didn't. He could come to God and say look at what I created, you didn't create all things.
1st John says that the wicked things in the world (such as lust and pride) were NOT created by God The Father.
So, I ask you, Deputy Dog, WHO created pride and lust?
Deputy Dog said:
There is one major, huge problem with that statement.Now how could God create sin ,not be guilty of the sin and not tempt anyone to sin? It's real simple! By giving the law against the sin. In Adam and Eve's case, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it..."
By giving the law, God creates sin.
SIN EXISTED BEFORE God ever gave any Laws to Adam and Eve!
Satan and his angels had already sinned in Heaven!
There is no statement in the Bible that says that God gave His angels Laws about sinning, is there?
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UnDisfellowshipped
Also, let's look at what Deputy Dog is claiming about Adam and Eve's test:
1: God creates Adam and Eve so that they have NO CHOICE and NO FREEDOM to choose to obey God, and are predestined to sin.
2: But, God is somehow not responsible for sin because He gave a Law against it, even though God predestined Adam and Eve to break that Law???
That is not the God of Ezekiel:
Ezekiel 33:11: Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord G od , 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'
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Deputy Dog
Wow! I have been disfellowshipped by Undisfellowshipped Well my Catholic friend, I was anathamatized by the Catholic church centuries ago, and in a way, it was for some of the same reasons. They believe (as do you apparently) that the good works in Ephesians 2:10 are meritorious toward salvation.
The Bible also teaches that men must RECEIVE Jesus into their hearts to be saved:
The Holy Spirit does not come to dwell in your heart OR seal you UNTIL you receive Him.
Are there any other things that one must do to be saved? It seems that you believe that Jesus' blood doesn't save, but only makes us savable. You believe that your salvation is based on your faith, your repentance and your acceptance (or the receiving) of both the Holy Spirit and Jesus into your heart. You seem to think that God looks down the corridor of time and chooses the one that receives Him and the one that does the predestined works of Ephesians 2:10. While the bible in Romans 9 teaches that we are saved " that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth " Tell us Undisfellowshipped if Jesus died for all humans as you suggest why aren't all humans saved? Does Jesus fail as a mediator? What I mean is, in John 17:2 Jesus prays:
As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
If the Father gives Him power over all flesh and as you believe that means all humans (and so do I, here), why are not all humans saved?
Jesus continues:
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I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.It looks to me that Jesus doesn't mediate for all humans, just them that the Father gives him.
Next
Have I twisted the Scriptures? If so, please show me immediately so I can know where I did so.
I have tried repeatedly and you refuse to even look at what I'm saying. Please, just let the scriptures speak for themselves as I try to do. We don't need you to mediate for us, as we all can read. Trust the Holy Spirit to reveal truth (as that is not your job). And please, let my words speak for them self's or let me explain myself, because you don't have a clue as to what I mean most of the time apparently. Example, you quote me
It is not Gods' will that everyone is Jesus' spiritual "brother" or "sister" or "mother".
Then you go on to explain what I mean. Please let me speak for myself. Next
Jesus said that Satan is "the father of the lie" and that he speaks the lie on his own. Are you saying God created lying also?
Satan could be the father of many things, that doesn't mean he created anything. He may have told the first lie and or have been the master of lies. You say:
SIN EXISTED BEFORE God ever gave any Laws to Adam and Eve!
Satan and his angels had already sinned in Heaven!
There is no statement in the Bible that says that God gave His angels Laws about sinning, is there?
All those thing are true, but that is not a problem, because God did not reveal everything in His word, only what we need to know. He must have revealed sin by the law to the angels at some point, otherwise He would have no basis by which to judge them. D Dog
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ellderwho
Undis,
What are your responses to John chapter 5. From page 8 and 9???
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UnDisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog said:
He must have revealed sin by the law to the angels at some point, otherwise He would have no basis by which to judge them.
I don't think that is necessarily true.
God is going to judge all of the people who have never even known or heard about God or God's Laws or the Gospel, isn't He?
My point is, God is going to judge persons whom He did not reveal His Laws to, isn't He?
At the Great White Throne Judgment, all lost sinners will go to Hell even if they never knew about God's Laws.
2nd Thessalonians 1:8-9: In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
The angels and Adam would have known better than to disobey God because of their built-in, God-given consciences.
But, let's just say that God did give the angels a Law against sin.
That would mean that God DID create the concept or idea of sin, which does not contradict anything else in the Bible.
But, God did NOT create the actual first sin and rebellion of Satan. That's my whole point.
God knew before He ever created Satan that Satan would sin, thus God already knew the concept of sin, but God did not create Satan so that Satan had no choice but to sin.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Deputy Dog said:
Then you go on to explain what I mean. Please let me speak for myself.
Have I misquoted you? Please show me exactly where.
Have I misinterpreted what you said? Please show me exactly where.