Freedom to Choose God (page 62)

ellderwho

LT,

Genesis 3:5
For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Sounds like the tree was of good and evil.

Is this the same evil?

Joshua 23:15
Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

1 Samuel 16:23
And it came to pass, when the [evil] spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

2 Samuel 12:11
Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

2 Samuel 17:14
And Absalom and all the men of Israel said, The counsel of Hushai the Archite [is] better than the counsel of Ahithophel. For the LORD had appointed to defeat the good counsel of Ahithophel, to the intent that the LORD might bring evil upon Absalom.

1 Kings 9:9
And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

To take that further, I don't think that God actively interferes with every aspect on man's life. The occurences of interferance are well attested to in Scripture, but only cover a minor portion of the life of a people. Can't you see that experientially, in the realm of prayer?

Ah......NO.

LittleToe

I stand by my comments on what Genesis labels the tree (you forgot the highlight the "know" part ), and the nature of the Lord's evil.

Your text-bombing doesn't detract from that.

Deputy Dog

Ew, Great job! Joshua 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, that as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you. LT When God brings evil on someone, is that like giving them a hand grenade and waiting for "them" to pull the pin? I like the word "Bring" (sorta looks like " cause ") better than "alow or permit". What do you think LT? According to these verses, it looks like God is dealing with evil directly, don't you think? Are you ready to call Him the God of good "and" evil? He doesn't seem to mind taking the credit for evil here. D Dog

ellderwho

My point is merely that God doesn't actively make people do evil things

The texts bombs were designed to hit the above target.

ellderwho

LT: If He has any part in evil it's with regards to the punishment visited upon those who sin, which is an evil consequence of their own actions.

I dont know about that one. I believe God uses it however he feels he needs to whether to punish or get something accomplished.

Deputy Dog

My point is merely that God doesn't actively make people do evil things. They are responsible for their own actions, in that regard, whether it comes from a "totally depraved" human nature, or from an "innocent" one, as in the case of Adam.

I think I side with Luther on this one. When ever any man is given a choice, he will always choose to sin. This is how we are slaves to sin. You see LT, I believe even though Adam and Eve were innocent, they were slaves. God commanded. They obeyed. They were innocent, but had no righteousness. After they sinned they were condemned, but, still slaves of the law, unto death. Now, grace comes along,

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I thank God LT that even though I'm still a sinner, I have Christ's righteousness, something that Adam and Eve never had before the fall. D Dog

LittleToe

EW:
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Boom!!!
LOL

LT: If He has any part in evil it's with regards to the punishment visited upon those who sin, which is an evil consequence of their own actions.

As you rightly acknowledge, this would be my opinion on those texts.

LittleToe

DDog:
Same comment to yourself, as EW.
To my mind it satisfactorily explains those texts.
But moving swiftly on, as I believe we've probably exhausted that side of the discussion, to the edification of all parties

Unlike you, I don't feel that God is the author of sin, nor do I believe that man was created a slave.
He became slave to sin and death, but wasn't created that way.

Don't you see the distinction between a parent instructing their child to do something, and a Master instructing their slave? I'm amazed, for even Paul made such a distinction!

They were innocent, but had no righteousness.

How are you defining "righteousness"?

After they sinned they were condemned, but, still slaves of the law, unto death.

They were? Where did they find the time-machine, to project them 3000 years into the future?

I thank God LT that even though I'm still a sinner, I have Christ's righteousness, something that Adam and Eve never had before the fall.

So do I, as evidenced from my quotation of Boston

ellderwho

John Gill:..... God is the author of, even of all prosperity of every kind, which this word includes: "evil" is also from him; not the evil of sin; this is not to be found among the creatures God made; this is of men, though suffered by the Lord, and overruled by him for good: but the evil of punishment for sin, God's sore judgments, famine, pestilence, evil beasts, and the sword, or war, which latter may more especially be intended, as it is opposed to peace; this usually is the effect of sin; may be sometimes lawfully engaged in; whether on a good or bad foundation is permitted by God; moreover, all afflictions, adversities, and calamities, come under this name, and are of God; see Job.2:10, I the Lord do all these things; and therefore must be the true God, and the one and only one. Kimchi, from Saadiah Gaon, observes, that this is said against those that assert two gods, the one good, and the other evil; whereas the Lord is the Maker of good and evil, and therefore must be above all; and it is worthy of observation

LT, Im trying to re-read your position to better understand your reasoning.

Do you agree that man is the author of sin, according to John Gill?

If so, I find it difficult to reckon this with the way God is shown to use evil in the sited "text bombs".

LittleToe

EW:We need to differentiate between fallen man, who is "totally depraved", and Adam in a state of innocence.
It was specifically Adam who became the author of sin, IMHO.

To this end, it would surely be lawful for God to bring any manner of retribution (bad / evil) upon fallen man, at any time?

Gill's theological position is pretty close to my own. There are a few areas that don't completely match up, as you'd expect, since he was a Hyper-Calvinist and I am not. However you can probably assume that for the most part I will be in agreement with him. He also did some fantastic work on Canticles, but I digress...

Freedom to Choose God

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