Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog said:
As for Hebrews 10: 28-29 I think these verses deal more with those who say they believe the gospel, but continue to willfully sin.
Is that what the Scripture says? Where does the Scripture say what you claimed? Please read the context of Hebrews 10:28-29 (I will use the King James Version this time): Hebrews 10:26: For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, Hebrews 10:29: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews Chapter 10 is talking about a person who has already "received the knowledge of the truth" of the Gospel, AND has been "sanctified" by the Blood of the Covenant. Now lets look at Hebrews Chapter 6: Hebrews 6:4-6: For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. That shows clearly that a person who was "once enlightened" by The Holy Spirit CAN fall away. Now lets look at 2nd Peter Chapter 2: 2nd Peter 2:20-21: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. That shows that even though a person has "escaped the pollutions of the world through knowledge" [being enlightened], that person can fall away, and it would have been better for them if they had NEVER known the Gospel! 2nd Peter 2:1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. That shows that a person can deny Jesus who BOUGHT THEM and then be destroyed.
LittleToe

DDog:
Gotta disagree with ya, on that one
For an individual who has difficulties with "assurance of faith", or someone who sincerely think that God hasn't listened to them, their opinion might unfortunately be quite different.
LittleToe

UnDis:
How do you understand the term "predestinated"?
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
You continue to admit that God chooses to draw, but deny that its Gods will, that God gets what he wants. Regardless of what man thinks he wants.
You continue to deny these Scriptures which show clearly that not every single thing that happens is the will of God:
Mark 3:35: For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Does this mean that every human being on earth is Christ's brother or sister or mother?
Ephesians 6:6: Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
Doesn't that Verse show that "menpleasers" are NOT doing the will of God?
1st Thessalonians 4:3: For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication
Doesn't that Verse show that whoever commits fornication is NOT doing the will of God?
1st Peter 4:2: That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
Doesn't that Verse show that whoever "lives in the flesh to the lusts of men" is NOT doing the will of God?
1st John 2:17: And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
Are all men going to "abideth forever"? Are all men doing the will of God? What is your answer to that?
Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Are all men "doing the will of The Father"? Are all men going to enter the Kingdom of Heaven?
Ellderwho said:
Then you try to blanket the issue with God wants all to be saved thinking, and Jesus died for everyone, without understanding that God Has already predestined his choosing and we can somehow effect this choice that was made before the founding of the earth.
Please answer this: How do you fit 1st Timothy Chapter 2 in with your beliefs as stated in that quote?
You have refused to answer my direct questions about 1st Timothy Chapter 2.
So, I leave you a Scripture to think about:
1st Peter 3:15: But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe said:
UnDis:How do you understand the term "predestinated"?
Before I answer that, I want to post all of the Scriptures which appear to teach Predestination, just so I can post the Verses for "both sides" of the debate (New King James Version).
I take the entire Bible as the Word of God. Every word of every Verse!
So it is important to read ALL of the Verses related to this debate and then find out what the TRUTH is.
I will answer your question soon, but I want to re-study all of the Verses below first, and make my reply.
Does the Bible teach Predestination?
Romans 8: 28-30: And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Ephesians 1: 4-12: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 2:8-10: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Acts 13:48: Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Romans 9:10-24: And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Jeremiah 1:5: " Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." 2nd Timothy 1: 9: who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, I'm sure there are more Verses that the Predestination Christians use.
UnDisfellowshipped

Here are a few more Verses which show that salvation is open to ANYONE:
Luke 2:10-12: Then the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. For there is born to you this day in the city of David a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. And this will be the sign to you: You will find a Babe wrapped in swaddling cloths, lying in a manger."
The angel said that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was for ALL PEOPLE.
Revelation 22: 17: And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
Mark 1: 14-15: Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
Our Lord Jesus Christ spoke those words to the general public in Galilee!
LittleToe

You've missed my point. I'm merely asking how you understand the term "predestinated".
If you haven't got an understanding on the term, so that you need to restudy it, so be it. I'm cool with that.
I think you have the texts regarding it pretty well covered, though John the Baptist is one example that springs to mind as missing.
As for texts that Calvinists use (because you'd have to add foreordination in there) Eph.2:8 - 10 is another, but as I said, that wasn't really my point brother
UnDisfellowshipped

LittleToe,
I thought you were asking what I believed the word "Predestination" meant in the Scriptures.
I looked up Strong's, and this is what is says:
Strong's 4309: "Predestinate" (Greek: proorizo)
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
I also looked up Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:
Main Entry: pre·des·ti·na·tion
Pronunciation: (")prE-"des-t&-'nA-sh&n, "prE-des-
Function: noun
1 : the act of predestinating : the state of being predestinated
2 : the doctrine that God in consequence of his foreknowledge of all events infallibly guides those who are destined for salvation
_______________________________________________________
Basically, from what I have read, the word "Predestinate" simply means that a person has chosen to make something happen in the future.
Yizuman

The way I understand Predesination is this... Before the world began, God saw all things happened before the world was formed. Saw saw me in the future kneeling on the floor and asking Jesus to forgive me of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. In accordance to scripture....
Ephesians 1: 4-12: just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself..........
Since God saw me turning to Him for forgiveness and accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior of my life long before the world began, God predesinated me to be His adopted son before I was even born. All because of a choice I made in that day, my personal choice. Let me ask you this question, can you place a limit in the abilities of what God can and cannot do? Yiz
gumby

Does God get what he desires? What do you think? Has there ever been a time, will there ever be a time, when Almighty God will desire (want) something, but he won't get it? I can think of something.
God desires ALL HUMANS to be saved
God desires that ALL men be saved, yet he is able to only save a handful out of humanity that has unreservedly put their trust in his son (which most of mankind knows little or nothing of) and he is going to kill the rest and send them somewhere bad.
Why do you suppose an all powerful god could not have something he desires? You would think he could figure a way out of this dilema. The best he could come up with since Adams fall, was to sacrafice his son to save a handful of people. Weird ain't it?
Gumby

Freedom to Choose God

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