by Elsewhere 111 Replies latest jw friends
The BBC's Panorama programme on Sunday featured four Muslim women who wore the jilbab or headscarf entirely by their choosing, in one instance against the wishes of her parents
Yes, and you could also find four big haired, heavily made up "christian women" That enjoy helping bomb abortion clinics and getting beaten by their promise keeper hubbies. But I betcha they are not the majority.
While you agreed that Christianity has a similar past to Islam's present, I guess you wouldn't say it was evil.
Actually, I would say that Christianity's past was very evil. The Inquisitions.......what a horrible, horrible tragedy that should have never happened. The difference I would say is that Jesus never, ever suggested or hinted at the "conqueor or kill" attitute - quite the opposite. However, Mohammed most certainly did advocate the "conqueor or kill" attitude and it's written there in the Koran.
If you're hoping for change within Islam, I agree with you, but if you're calling for Islam to be stopped (as Thi Chi would seem to like) then I would have to disagree.
I don't think Islam will ever "stop" - there's just too many of them, but it absolutely needs change.
Mary: Good job.....you are not alone!
""Ah, the eschatalogical majority speaks! How do you propose to stop this incredible threat to the Christian West?""
How did we address Muslim aggression in the 10 through 13 th Centuries? How did we end Fascism in WWII? How did we end Communism and aggression brought forth through the USSR? How did we End Slavery in the US? It was not by making excuses or appeasement to evil (thought it was tried by some and failed) or rewriting History..
This is what we are facing:
Imperialistic
The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."
Colonialist
The Muslim goal was to have a central government, first at Damascus, and then at Baghdad -- later at Cairo, Istanbul, or other imperial centers. The local governors, judges, and other rulers were appointed by the central imperial authorities for far off colonies. Islamic law was introduced as the senior law, whether or not wanted by the local people. Arabic was introduced as the rulers' language, and the local language frequently disappeared. Two classes of residents were established. The native residents paid a tax that their colonialist rulers did not have to pay.
Although the law differed in different places, the following are examples of colonialist laws to which colonized Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:
In each case, these laws allowed the local conquered people less freedom than was allowed the conquering colonialist rulers. Even non-Arab Muslim inhabitants of the conquered lands became second class citizens behind the ruling Arabs. This is the classic definition of colonialist -- "a group of people who settle in a distant territory from the state having jurisdiction or control over it and who remain under the political jurisdiction of their native land."
We will talk about "bloody" as we proceed. I will not describe the almost 1,500 years of Muslim imperialistic, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others through invasion and war to the east of Arabia in Iraq, Persia, and much further eastward, which continues to this day.
In any event, because it was the closest geographically, Palestine was the first Western non-Arab area invaded in the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of others. At the time, Palestine was under the rule of the so-called Eastern Roman Empire, ruled from Istanbul by Greek speaking people, and was Eastern Orthodox Catholic. The Eastern Orthodox rule was despotic and the Eastern Roman Empire was in serious decline. The Eastern Orthodox rulers were despots, and in Palestine had subjugated the large population of local Jews and Monophysite Christians. Because the Orthodox were imperialist, colonialist, and bloody, and majored in religious persecution to boot, the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine, and then Egypt, was made easier. Because of Orthodox weakness and the relative speed of the conquest of Palestine and Israel, I have often seen this Muslim, imperialist, colonialist bloody conquest described by Muslim and PC writers as "peaceful" or "bloodless." This statement is simply not true.
The Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest and subjugation of Palestine began with a battle, the August 20, 636, battle of Yarmk (it is believed that 75,000 soldiers took part -- hardly bloodless). With the help of the local Jews who welcomed the Muslims as liberators, the Muslims had subjugated the remainder of Palestine but had not been able to capture Jerusalem. Beginning in July 637, the Muslims began a siege of Jerusalem which lasted for five (hardly bloodless) months before Jerusalem fell in February 638. Arabs did not sack the city, and the Arab soldiers were apparently kept in tight control by their leaders. No destruction was permitted. This was indeed a triumph of civilized control, if imperialism, colonization, and bloody conquest can ever be said to be "civilized." It was at this conquest that many significant hallmarks of Muslim colonialism began. The conquered Christian and Jewish people were made to pay a tribute to the colonialist Muslims. In addition, Baghdad used the imperialist, colonialist, bloody wars of conquest throughout the life of its empire to provide the Caliphate with a steady stream of slaves, many of whom were made eunuchs.
The Muslim conquest of (Christian) North Africa went relatively easily until the native peoples of North Africa (most importantly the Berbers) were encountered west of Egypt. The North African people fought so strongly against the Muslims that the Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest in the west was brought to an almost complete stop between Tripoli and Carthage for more than a quarter century. The Muslims broke through in a series of bloody battles followed by bloody (revenge) massacres of the Muslim's (largely Christian) opponents. This Muslim imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquest continued through North Africa and through what is now Spain, Portugal, and southern France, until they were stopped at the battle of Poiters (hardly bloodless) in the middle of France.
I believe that if I had the time, I could show that the Muslims, in their western imperialist, colonialist, bloody conquests, killed two to three times as many Christians as the Christians killed Muslims in all of the Crusades combined.
Actually, latest historical research indicates that the Inquisition wasn't as bad as we've been lead to believe. Keep up!
What of today?
1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.
2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.
3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.
4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated into Indonesia.
5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.
6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.
7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.
8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians.
9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.
10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.
11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.
12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.
13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.
14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.
Yes, I know that the reverse has been true. For example, Christian Serbia entered and massacred Bosnian Muslims. The western response was instructive. The west sent troops to protect the Muslims. Serbia gave up its leader to be tried for the crime by an international panel. Will Indonesia do the same with respect to Timor? Or Sudan with respect to southern Sudan?
Question: What is the title of the shortest book in the world? Answer: "The list of Muslim nations who have risked the lives of their soldiers to protect (as with the U.S. protection of Muslims in Kuwait) Christian or Jewish citizens from Muslim imperialism."
Yes, I also know that in the 20th century the west fought two of the bloodiest wars in history. But in the past more than 55 years, the west has developed methods that have led to peace among the west, and all but totally ended western imperialism and colonialism. With former colonies having a large majority in the UN, and the example of the west before it, Islam has continued its imperialist, colonial, bloody wars unabated.
One final point. Muslims base their claim to the city of Jerusalem upon the belief that Jerusalem has been a Muslim city for centuries. It may be that Muslims were never a majority in Jerusalem. We cannot prove this for all time periods, but we know that Muslims were a minority in the first several centuries after the Muslim imperialist conquest and during the century of Christian occupation during the Crusades. And we know that in the Middle Ages, Jerusalem was not considered important to the Muslims, but it was to the Christians and Jews. The Muslims made cities other than Jerusalem the capital of their Palestinian colony. Many Caliphs never even visited Jerusalem. Therefore, there was a steady stream of Jewish and Christian (but not Muslim) immigrants into Jerusalem throughout the Middle Ages, including a major immigration of Karaite Jews in the late eighth and early ninth centuries, and a steady stream of Armenians for hundreds of years, until there were so many Armenians that an Armenian Quarter was established in Jerusalem. Finally, we know that for at least more than the last 160 years, Muslims were a clear minority in Jerusalem. The Muslim Ottomans, and then the British and Israelis, kept careful census record showing the following percentages of Muslim population in Jerusalem:
1844 -- 33%
1896 -- 19%
1910 -- 13%
1922 -- 22%
1931 -- 22%
1948 -- 24%
1967 -- 21%
1972 -- 23%
1992 -- 25%
Scotsman: your smug remarks will not make up for the sorely lacking claims some have made here...
Nuke the Middle East
Thi Chi
I haven't stated that Islam is a delight (nor has Abaddon for that matter) but you're approach to would seem to be to destroy it. Unless, with your comparison to communism, you think it will fail structurally from within. I'm left with the impression that you would be content if all Islamic nations were nuked. Am I wrong and you'd prefer mass conversion to your Christian faith?
Maybe I'm wrong in recalling that you believe in the return of the Messiah, is it by his own means or with the military aid of a Christian army?
edited to add: it was flippant, not smug. I apologise.
I'm left with the impression that you would be content if all Islamic nations were nuked.
I cant speak for Thi Chi, but I know that I would be perfectly content. Now you might think thats cruel, but being that Islamic fundies will Nuke us the first chance they get, I call it preventative maintanence.
