double post :)
Does Belgium Have it Right About JWs?
by ezekiel3 106 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Pole
Heathen,
YOu got it all wrong again, dude. What "Euros" are you addressing, when praising Czar for his peculiar point about gun control laws? Are you talking to the Canadian guy?::Thank God you euros don't have the right to vote in the US .
This is a ridiculously childlish thing to say in the context of the discussion on this thread. True, you said earlier on:
:: I believe that all countries should adopt the US constitution as the foundation of law , it is a fine document that grants people civil rights and a free conscience in religious beliefs .
But just because you want every country to become the 51st state of the USA doesn't mean you can assume anyone here wants to vote in America to make it more European or whatever. So thank God you Americans can't vote here to make us accept your constitution. What sort of comment is that anyway?
:: I don't think any of you have read the US constitution . If you could show me one area where it demeans human nature you might have a point .
Hello? WHo are you talking to? Are repling to my comment::: OMG! Heathen, have ever made yourself familiar with any other country's constitution? Any European one?
I didn't say American Constitution sucks. I've read it and even memorized parts of it. I only asked you if you were familiar with any European constitution. If you aren't, then how can you say you'd like all countries in the world to accept the American Constitution?
:: Czar had a point that we are usually mad as hell about the government and it's constant persuit of undermining individual rights such as freedom of religion or the right to free speech .
No. Czar made a silly insulting comment about Europeans and applied it to a Canadian guy. Czar should apologize for what he said. If he doesn't then he will make himself look like a narrow-minded jingoistic American who cannot admit his mistake. Don't follw suit, Heathen.
Pole
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Narkissos
The original reports can be found at http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2004/ and they are an interesting read. The part about France is quite similar to the one about Belgium.
In sum, any cult control policy will be subject to criticism from the US Department of State. So it really depends, for any country in the world, on the local government's will and power to maintain some independence.
In France, the ascending man in the right wing is Nicolas Sarkozy, who happens to be much more pro-US than Chirac (although being member of the same political party). When he was Minister of the Interior (in charge or religious issues) any kind of investigation or control on cults was clearly toned down. If he succeeds in becoming the next president in 2007 (which I really don't hope) this will be the end of France's difference in this regard. But this seems to be a question of time anyway, since a voluntary cult control policy is only the choice of a minority of European countries (especially France, Belgium and Germany), and their independence toward European central decisions is decreasing. Now Europe in general is (unfortunately IMO) much more vulnerable to US pressure and cult lobbying combined.
Heathen:
I think Islam is far more dangerous but good luck trying to convince them otherwise . They train their children to do suicide bombings
I strongly disagree. Only a very small percentage of Moslem families will provide for a sectarian education, while almost every JW family will. Islamism (a political instrumentalization of Islam) is not Islam. Btw the suicide bombings are primarily a political, not a religious action. Remember, kamikaze is not an Arab word. -
czarofmischief
Czar made a silly insulting comment about Europeans and applied it to a Canadian guy. Czar should apologize for what he said. If he doesn't then he will make himself look like a narrow-minded jingoistic American who cannot admit his mistake. Don't follw suit, Heathen.
No I am a narrow minded jingoistic American who CAN step up and apologize to a Canadian. First, I would like to apologize to all of Canada for lumping you in with those nasty Europeans. I should have remembered about quotes being from Canada. I am a moron, a pinhead, if you will.
Second, I can't believe I'm on the same side as Heathen on anything. I find it reassuring about the "other side" of the political spectrum.
Third, my country is deluged with European immigrants who came here for jobs and promptly turned around and tried to make my country into a bloc party. they are going to wreck my country the way they wrecked THEIRS through hare-brained schemes like gun control; the difference is, they can leave when they are done. I have to stay and try to put it all back together after Tuh-RAIZ-ah Heinz Kerry is done putting herself at the top. (Yes, I know she's from South Africa, a country that makes OUR racial problems look like scuffles on the playground, largely through economic policies based on racism!)
I of course bear no malice toward individual Europeans. My dad is an immigrant from Scotland, for heaven's sake. It is the European government's elitist viewpoint towards America that drives me crazy. What I resent is when they come over, miss the comforitng hugs they got from their abusive governments and try to give MY government the same power over ME. There is an Israeli immigrant who shouts that I don't love my country because I think completely socialized medicine is a bad thing that unduly empowers government and rewards irresponsible choices. There is a SOVIET immigrant, via Israel, who says that I am a traitor if I don't vote for Kerry. I work in a Jewish neighborhood, can you tell? I don't mind these immigrants being here to take advantage of our freedoms, it is when they get scared and try to take away those freedoms so it is more like what they are used to that I get really mad and resentful.
it's not going to be my kids who get killed by that same crack dealer you didn't give a shit about... insinuating that no INNOCENT people get killed by guns..... GEEZ!!!! But I do care about those INNOCENT people.... you know why?..... because there are too many whacked out people like yourself that may convince others that your points are rational.... we need to oppose people like you just as much as we need to oppose/prevent hurting by organizations like the WTBTS.
And what about the innocents who are denired the protection of a gun and die with their restraining orders in their pockets at the hands of abusive partners? It happens over and over. Prohibiting gun ownership really works to keep guns out of the hands of drug dealers... sure... yeah... right... let's take a ride for about a mile around parts of my neighborhood. You'll see some things, like government CAN'T keep you safe, they can't even do a half-assed job, and they don't want to do that. They just want to keep gusn out of the middle class - because that is where revolution comes from. Not the ranks of the poor, but the middle, educated, invested class.
You can't take the guns away from the crack dealer. He's already breaking the law, by his very occupation. Do you really think he's going to pay attention when you suggest he get rid of the tools of his trade? Maybe they are that civilized in Canada, but I doubt it.
Guns are dangerous tools, I agree. But so are cars, if you don't use them right. Are you suggesting that car usage be restricted to the military and police? The rest of us can wait on the bus? Sure, we'd be in less danger of getting run OVER (except by the military and the police, of course, but you don't want to admit THAT) but I also couldn't go anywhere. And the black market in cars would be just fine, so the elite would still have their H2's. But, oh, we'd be SAFE... not...
Do you know the leading act of violent death in our past century was committed by legitimate governments on their own citizenry? Government killed more true innocents than any amount of street violence!!! Wake UP, smell the coffee - the TRUTH is that you and I are in more danger from being rounded up and executed for our beliefs than in being hit by a stray bullet from a turf war.
If you really want to end the violence, bring drug dealing into the civilized business world. Legalize it, hold buyers accountable for their actions, stop spending 20 billion a year on a war on our own populace and maybe we can buy some of those drugs for the elderly you have legitimate concerns about.
I'm getting pretty radical, but to call me a whackjob is to dismiss my points based on your previous misconceptions. You are denying the harsh reality to live in a fantasy - who is being schizophrenic, here?
And you should know from being on JWD that calling somebody the WT or comparing them morally is about as low as you can go. It's not rational or legitimate, but it is the worst form of mudslinging around here. It's the unspeakable word of contempt, if you will. Sure I have my views, a lot of people around here do. Some agree, some don't. But I would never demand that your family stop speaking to you over this or that or the other thing...
CZAR
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outbutnotdown
Czar,
I'm sure you have other viewpoints in other areas that I would be in agreement with, and others that your objectivity would be more advanced than mine. But on this one, I still think that you are rationalizing something that shouldn't really be rationalized. I mean, sure, the world is, by nature, imperfect and I don't expect things to run perfectly, but it doesn't mean that we shouldn't FIX things that are broken, and in general, try to make it a better place.
Again, without intending to insult any individual Americans here, I think the gun thing has been broken for a long time. Crack dealers in Canada...... (and yes, we do have them here too) have a lot fewer guns to bring along to their drug deals, thus leading to fists doing the damage instead of bullets.
It's a lot easier for me to sit here and suggest WHEN the U.S. should have adapted their gun laws, but at some point they should have been able to see that the "Constitutional right to bear arms" was doing more HARM than GOOD, and at a point in time close to that, it should have been amended. Sometimes when people (or gov't) miss an opportunity to correct a misjudgement, they seem to go into denial about it and eventually try to pretend that there never was ever that opportunity for correction.
I've seen that thing in my personal life and in bigger things, and despite the fact that you think I was insulting you about the JW correlation.... I'll say it again, because it is relevant...... democratic countries have made the mistake for years....... that they have been so worried about "freedom of religion" that they allow organizations to prosper that by their very existence, steal this same freedom that was intended to be granted in the first place. The WTBTS, and many other extreme religions are perfect examples of this.
B.
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shamus
First, I would like to apologize to all of Canada for lumping you in with those nasty Europeans. I should have remembered about quotes being from Canada. I am a moron, a pinhead, if you will.
What an apology!
I am so glad that some American's aren't as pompous as this post.
Who the hell in Europe wanted to vote in America anyways?
For god's sake, America means very little to many other nations. When are you going to realize that? When are you going to realize that the world does not revolve around you in Europe, Asia, Canada, South America....
When is America going to stop sticking it's nose in another sovergn countries business, LOL! That's what this thread is aboot, right?
As far as I'm concerned, arm yourselves to the teeth! I have absolutely no opinion on that matter. Because I live in Canada; not the United States. And I'm sure glad that we don't have assult rifles for sale here over the counter, LOL! If so, the idiot rednecks up here would be pretty nutty... what with all the grow-ops, crackheads and all.
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Panda
Thank you Czar for excellent commentary. It seems to me that in Belgium the government is merely looking at what an organization claims to be and what they in fact are. In the US we are so used to accepting any group becoming a money making enterprize that we don't see what those officials in Belgium (and France and Russia) do see. These are corporations and not religions. They should pay taxes as any business and not look for special favors because they claim God as their CEO.
Because you have a right does not mean you MUST excercise that right. For example many Americans don't vote. I'm sorry to say that because especially for women and black Americans voting has been a priveldge long denied them. So we don't always make use of our priveledges. Not everyone in the US has a gun. But you can bet the criminals have them. I agree that legalization of drugs is the answer to many problems of crime in the US.
The Euro will be taking over in 10 years. Oh please don't make me laugh. Aren't the Turks going to be part of the EU? Good Luck Euro. The next giant economy will be China. They are ready and the Chinese government is not taking any chances with their currency. If you know money then you know that the Yuan (Chinese $$) is undervalued. If you have visited other developing nations and then China you will see exactly what's going on. The English and Germans will become the bulwark for the Euro and the "people " won't care for that at all.
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Pole
The Euro will be taking over in 10 years. Oh please don't make me laugh. Aren't the Turks going to be part of the EU? Good Luck Euro.
Panda. What exactly do you mean by the Euro? The currency? It's already doing much better than the dollar.
I think you are right in saying that the EU economy is not likely to outperform the American one (if that's what you are saying), but the argument you've chosen....
I think I now understand what your president George W Bush meant when he recently said that Turkey should join the EU (For which he was righly scolded by Chirac who reminded him to stick to his country's problems). If he meant the same thing as you then he is a cynical bastard.
This sort of attitudes make me wonder about the future of America. Don't worry, I don't dream about becoming an American voter. It just seems like some of you have lost many of the values on which America was built. Now you think you are smart and you delegate the "dirty job" of accepting the Turks to the EU, thus ruining its economy. How cunning.
What a jingoistic thing to say.
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sleepy
The EU GDP is already higher than the US.The EU does have a higher population but taken individualy so does the US compared to Britain, France or Germany.
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Panda
Pole, You said:
"This sort of attitudes make me wonder about the future of America." Well, so you are concerned about the future of my country? Perhaps you should take Chiracs advice to President Bush "[when he was] scolded by Chirac who reminded him to stick to his country's problems."
"Don't worry, I don't dream about becoming an American voter." I won't worry. Plenty of other Europeans want to come here and earn the priveldge to vote. Many infact from Poland.
"It just seems like some of you have lost many of the values on which America was built." And exactly what would you know about American values of the 18th century? OK maybe that's unfair. Maybe you are a historian and I should give you credit for studying American history.
" Now you think you are smart and you delegate the "dirty job" of accepting the Turks to the EU, thus ruining its economy." You are the one calling the acceptance of Turkey a dirty job, not me. I merely comment on the fact that your economy will be adversely effected by this move and yet I suppose it will be easier to get in the middle of that group of Islamics and Christians in Turkey in some imperialist way when you share an economy.
" How cunning. " Why thank you Pole. That's the nicest comment you've made to me.